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Old 05-18-2017, 04:16 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitri MdP View Post
hmm for 600 FPS I'd have went the other way, and order a 75, as the manufacturer recommends


Still really weird that you don't get the right results with the bucking and nub that are renowned precisely for consistency.


In your place, I'd try with the Autobot 70 and the black concave nub, that's the combination that better works for me every time. Before putting the assembly back into the unit, check for the hop patch to come down evenly.


Other than that, it might not be a hop problem at all, but either a faulty AA barrel or just a bad case of crappy bbs of the bloating kind.


Ironically enough, poor quality bbs work better with crappy OEM barrels because of clearance (relatively larger bore). A friend of mine got that symptom when he first upgraded his M40A5: he was getting awful accuracy out of a Maple Leaf barrel, while getting quite better with the OEM one (both with a 75 Autobot bucking).


Turned out to be his WE bbs. They seemed OK, but had very minor diameter inconsistencies due to bloating, which make them work better with the wider bored OEM barrel.
Found the real problem a couple of weeks later, when he reached for his bag of bbs and got this beast of of it


Seriously. That's not an 8mm bb, those are 2 "6mm" bbs out of the same bag. Of course at the beginning it was not that noticeable, but that made us realize he got bad bbs.

As soon as he switched to Geoff's, his shots got much better with both barrels, and the ML one was allowed to shine, outperforming the OEM in every single way.
I tried a few brands and a few different weights, some washed, some not.
The results were basically the same.
I've also tried both black and blue nubs. While it is a bit better with the black one (blue might be too soft) it's still miles away from good.
I've tried an Autobot 70 as well as two Decepticons 70.
None of them worked, though as stated above, none of the patches looked good nor went down the window evenly.
Should have a new Autobot 60 tomorrow as well as a Monster 70 next week, will report back.
If I'll get the same results I'll shave off the bridge from the stock barrel and try that. I'd rather play it safe and don't do it until new bucking arrives as this setup works really decent at this point.
While it doesn't provide as much range nor airseal it's very consistent.
I'll play it safe and hold up on sanding until I'll be sure it's the barrel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RKS View Post
I have bought THREE AA chambers because of the love for them on this forum. I wrecked the first two on installation by tearing the head off the M3 screw that holds the chamber block to the chamber. (Yeah, I know it's my fault and I shouldn't have overtorqued but it didn't take much torque to pop the heads off the screws.)

I managed to fix the first one but I was getting disappointing range and accuracy, so I went back to the stock chamber. Then I got the second one and just decided to get a third when I wrecked the second one. Turns out I still had enormous trouble tuning the hopup -- it seems like the sweet spot window is about 1/4 of a turn on a 10-or-so-turn screw. And I was getting a lot of flyers and double feeds or failures to feed, unless I held the mag in.

I was using ML buckings with the AA chambers the whole time -- first Decepticon, then Monster.

Now I'm back to the stock TM chamber using an Autobots 60 bucking. I have no mods to the hopup arm but I can overhop 0.45s. I get about 200 real feet of effective range... I think my gun should be able to get more, but that's a different matter.

Anyway I wanted to share my story of not being so impressed with AA hopups... I should note I use a Mancraft SDiK and I think it's possible the Mancraft cylinder head doesn't work well with the AA hopup. (OP, do you use a stock cylinder head?)

Overall my conclusions has been that the AA hopup may be an improvement over JG or Well hopups, but it may not offer a noticeable improvement over a TM hopup.

my setup:
TM VSR-10 G-SPEC
compression: Mancraft SDiK, 2.28 joules
trigger: PDI v-trigger
barrel group: TM stock hopup, PDI 6.01x303
I don't think it's the chamber, though I've had the same exact issue - an M3 screw that holds the block snapped and I failed to get it out, so I had to get a new chamber.
The results were same on both though.
Since I'm using a BAR-10 the chamber is an improvement, provides a much better airseal and consistent FPS, however I seem to be unbelieveably unlucky with ML buckings.
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Old 05-18-2017, 06:12 AM   #17
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I'm also willing to say your barrel is doing something funky.

ML buckings have always been the best in all guns I've tested, so if you're getting better results with a stock bucking then something else is going wrong.
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Old 05-18-2017, 02:11 PM   #18
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I'm also willing to say your barrel is doing something funky.

ML buckings have always been the best in all guns I've tested, so if you're getting better results with a stock bucking then something else is going wrong.
Not as much as stock bucking, I've tossed a red Falcon bucking there.
It's the barrel and chamber that's stock, though I've shimmed the arm.
I'll get my hands on another bucking tomorrow and experiment a bit.
I'll throw that new Autobot on AA barrel and AA chamber as usual.
If it'll still be crap, I'll throw the Falcon bucking that worked great on stock barrel and chamber on AA barrel and into AA chamber.
If that won't work either I'll know it's the barrel, I'll cut the bridge from the stock one and throw an Autobot on it in AA chamber, in the meantime placing an order on LayLax barrel.
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:37 AM   #19
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Allright, so I think I got a winner. I don't want to say "spoke too soon" later, but it's very promising.
First of all, the bucking looked much better out of the box and I mean miles ahead of what I've seen with my previous ML buckings.
Contact patch is even, it doesn't have any manufacturing leftovers or at least none that would matter.
It goes down the window evenly, looking from both entry (chamber) and exit side of the barrel.
It's very slightly tilted to the left, however it's a really, really slight tilt, that only shows on maximum hop.

The results are way better. Of course I need to break it in, however I'm not getting any sideways curves, nearly all shots are in a straight line.
Haven't had a chance to test it extensively just yet, besides it's slightly windy.
I'll take it to a game this Sunday and do some field testing, keeping in mind it has to break in.
The range is also a great improvement over stock, modified chamber, but that's not a surprise considering the precision barrel, better seal and bucking as well as FPS boost coming from those.
It's funny though that while the FPS is still at 600 range (585 with stock chamber, about 610 with AA parts), with OEM parts the BB's slowly float to the target and with AA parts with 20-30 FPS more they zip so fast that I can hardly see them with 5x magnification.
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Old 05-19-2017, 08:49 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatGuyIvory View Post
It's funny though that while the FPS is still at 600 range (585 with stock chamber, about 610 with AA parts), with OEM parts the BB's slowly float to the target and with AA parts with 20-30 FPS more they zip so fast that I can hardly see them with 5x magnification.
Did you check for energy creep?
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Old 05-19-2017, 10:21 AM   #21
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well thats good to hear
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Old 05-19-2017, 11:03 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Dimitri MdP View Post
Did you check for energy creep?
Been a while, I just did again. Not as much as it would seem.
I'm getting steady 610 FPS with 2 FPS deviation on .2g BB's and 420 FPS on .45g BB's, so about 20 FPS higher.
Would be about 60+ FPS higher than OEM precision group, so maybe that's the case.

Just to note, field limits around here are quite high, all the way up to 650 FPS for BASR's.

I've also landed a few more test shots just because and it's still very good.
Beautiful straight line. Wish I could test it on a longer range as it sure as hell seems those BB's still have a whole lot of kick in them when they reach a target 60 meters away.

On a side note, damn LayLax doesn't drop down a single FPS after cutting, but uncut it goes down faster than my calories during an airsoft game.
I cut it down to ~610 hoping it would lose that 10-15 FPS and here it is 2 games later with exact same score.

Regarding BB's - since we're from all around the world here the brands are different for a lot of people and I'm looking into testing something new.
At this point I've settled for Specna Arms BB's - now before anyone goes crazy, these are surprisingly good. I'm using .36g in my flathopped AEG with Prommy barrel with great results, better than .36g MadBull's.
In my BAR-10 both .43's and .45's perform really good.
I've looked up some HPA Bio's that I've heard great things about.
Can anyone vouch for those? I'd pick up a bottle of .45's, but they're expensive like hell 'round here and I don't really trust bio BB's.
Will they hold up in a high-powered build like this one?
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Old 05-19-2017, 11:51 AM   #23
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the barrel was 610mm?
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Old 05-19-2017, 11:55 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by KillerDad View Post
the barrel was 610mm?
Both stock and my current one is 430 (AA 6.03).

EDIT: Oh sorry, did You mean the LayLax cutting part? I meant the spring, I just realized it's not fully clear, lol.
It was an M170 that I cut down to 600 FPS.

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Last edited by ThatGuyIvory; 05-19-2017 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 05-19-2017, 11:59 AM   #25
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oh the line where you said you cut it down ~610 confused me. lol
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Old 05-19-2017, 01:58 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by ThatGuyIvory View Post
So I've been messing around with Action Army's chamber and ML Autobot and Decepticon buckings with concave nubs. After a month of trying two different Decepticons, an Autobot, two AA chambers and two types of ML nubs I still can't get it to work. I got the range, but the shots are incredibly inconsistent.
Sometimes it overhops even without any hop applied, sometimes it curves to the right or left, sometimes it needs to be warmed up every 10 minutes or it won't apply enough hop.


I finally thought I got it right during the last game. Wasn't pefrect and was still inconsistent at 80+ meters, but did the job. Got back home, disassembled it to clean and bam, overhops again with random curving to both sides.


It got me thinking - maybe I just expect a bit too much. I put a stock chamber and stock barrel back with red Falcon bucking. Some shimming job done on that chamber back in the day. I expected it to shoot quite bad - h how wrong I was.
The range dropped down by a few meters, naturally, but the shots were incredibly consistent. One after another, all the same.


Now I'm kind of at a loss here and don't know where could be problem be. I've tried 3 different ML buckings (Two Decepticons, one Autobot, 70 degree) and 2 different nubs (hollow and solid). Got similar (bad) results with all of them.
I won't lie, it feels really sh*tty that after so much work put into this setup it's much worse than the stock JG chamber and barrel with minimum work put into it. I've got a softer, 60 degree Autobot on the way, but I kind of lost all the hope.


Specs:
BAR-10 ~600 FPS
AA chamber
AA 6.03 barrel
Autobot/Decepticon 70 degree with concave ML nub
AA zero trigger
AA cylinder
LayLax M170 cut to 600 FPS
AA spring guide


Stock:
BAR-10 chamber, shimmed and sanded arm
Stock barrel
Red Falcon bucking
Did you tried to reduce the power of the system a little bit, maybe 550fps or until 500fps? I note a better performance of my system with something around 530fps. Only an idea to give a shot.
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Tokyo Marui VSR-10 G-Spec

PDI Palsonite Kit
PDI 520 spring
PDI 6.05mm 430mm Inner barrel
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Stock hop up chamber - With a tensioner made by myself

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Old 05-19-2017, 03:11 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Ekashoter View Post
Did you tried to reduce the power of the system a little bit, maybe 550fps or until 500fps? I note a better performance of my system with something around 530fps. Only an idea to give a shot.
I did, for a while I've been using LayLax's M150 which gave me about 55X FPS after breaking in. It was just slightly better, but up to 65-70 meters. Beyond that it was going haywire. Now I know it was a lemon bucking.

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Old 05-20-2017, 04:08 AM   #28
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Having a 600fps BASR spring loaded is a little tricky.

You chrono the gun with 0.20gr bbs and you get 600fps without hop. Then, you put the 0.45 gram bbs and set the hop to shoot straight, cronoing again the gun you will have 460-470fps with 0.45gr bbs if your seal is ok. That translates into 4.5 joules energy which is very hard to manage.
The 0.45 bb is leaving the barrel with 470fps and 4,5 joules , at that velocity and energy if the bb is not near perfect it will have a random trajectory. In my opinion for that energy and speed you need heavier bbs to shoot.

I have 3 setups, L96 HPA, VSR 10 HPA, DMR G28 HPA, all 3 are capable of shooting at 100 meters with Maple Leaf buckings and nubs, the 2 snipers have MPL Diamond 70 and the DMR has the hibrid 70 Maple Leaf. All 3 have 6.01 Edgi barrels.

I think you have better results with the stock chamber and barrel only because you dont have that much bb retention with hopup applied the pressure spike is lower and the end velocity is lower also.

It is absurd to have better performance with stock parts....

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