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Old 05-16-2017, 03:47 PM   #1
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Cry AA hopup + ML bucking = inconsistency

So I've been messing around with Action Army's chamber and ML Autobot and Decepticon buckings with concave nubs. After a month of trying two different Decepticons, an Autobot, two AA chambers and two types of ML nubs I still can't get it to work. I got the range, but the shots are incredibly inconsistent.
Sometimes it overhops even without any hop applied, sometimes it curves to the right or left, sometimes it needs to be warmed up every 10 minutes or it won't apply enough hop.


I finally thought I got it right during the last game. Wasn't pefrect and was still inconsistent at 80+ meters, but did the job. Got back home, disassembled it to clean and bam, overhops again with random curving to both sides.


It got me thinking - maybe I just expect a bit too much. I put a stock chamber and stock barrel back with red Falcon bucking. Some shimming job done on that chamber back in the day. I expected it to shoot quite bad - h how wrong I was.
The range dropped down by a few meters, naturally, but the shots were incredibly consistent. One after another, all the same.


Now I'm kind of at a loss here and don't know where could be problem be. I've tried 3 different ML buckings (Two Decepticons, one Autobot, 70 degree) and 2 different nubs (hollow and solid). Got similar (bad) results with all of them.
I won't lie, it feels really sh*tty that after so much work put into this setup it's much worse than the stock JG chamber and barrel with minimum work put into it. I've got a softer, 60 degree Autobot on the way, but I kind of lost all the hope.


Specs:
BAR-10 ~600 FPS
AA chamber
AA 6.03 barrel
Autobot/Decepticon 70 degree with concave ML nub
AA zero trigger
AA cylinder
LayLax M170 cut to 600 FPS
AA spring guide


Stock:
BAR-10 chamber, shimmed and sanded arm
Stock barrel
Red Falcon bucking
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Old 05-16-2017, 04:21 PM   #2
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how was your airseal with the aa parts? tried the aa hop unit and ml bucking with another barrel?

i had some trouble with aa barrels.
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Old 05-16-2017, 04:52 PM   #3
 
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Try your setup with the stock barrel.
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Old 05-16-2017, 05:22 PM   #4
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Could be the barrel.

Also, ML buckings perform better after they're worn in after a thousand or so shots.

Also, 80 meters is a pretty long way :P
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Old 05-16-2017, 08:20 PM   #5
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yeah when i first got mine i applied max hop and shot a few hundred cheap bbs through it in the basement just to break it in.
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Old 05-17-2017, 06:08 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DangerDan View Post
how was your airseal with the aa parts? tried the aa hop unit and ml bucking with another barrel?

i had some trouble with aa barrels.
Airseal was great. I could put my finger on the tip of the barrel and the piston wouldn't reach the end of it's travel even after 2 minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plazmaburn View Post
Try your setup with the stock barrel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reliku View Post
Could be the barrel.

Also, ML buckings perform better after they're worn in after a thousand or so shots.

Also, 80 meters is a pretty long way :P
Unfortunately I can't check it with the stock barrel as it's bridged.
It's long indeed, but it's a 600FPS rifle and I get just short of that with stock configuration with MUCH better consistency, so I know I can do much better than that with the amount of backspin ML combo provides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerDad View Post
yeah when i first got mine i applied max hop and shot a few hundred cheap bbs through it in the basement just to break it in.
As for breaking in except for a few hundred BB's that I fired during raw testing, hop and optics adjusments I've also played 2 or 3 games with it.

I do believe it's the bucking though. It didn't look great to start with, but I thought I've managed to get it up to speed by removing some manufacturing lefovers - turns out I didn't.
I've tried putting it together again yesterday and looked down the barrel from the exit side.
With hop applied the contact patch was extremally uneven and for the love of me I couldn't even it out.
I tried reassembling three times as well as twisting the barrel in the chamber in both directions but none of that helped.
I just can't believe that for what they charge for these I've had a total of 3 bad buckings.
I've got another Autobot 60 degree on the way as well as Monster Diamond 70, hoping that it's just the Autobot/Decepticon series that had a bad batch (oddly enough I've ordered from my local store as well as overseas, both had a bad series).

The whole problem is that I'm on the brink of getting a new, high quality barrel and depending on whether I'll make the ML combo work or not I have to decide on bridged or unbridged.
If the whole ML combo won't work I'll call it a day (would be 5 bad buckings, that's where I draw the line :P ) and will pick up a bridged PDI 6.01 with W Hold or Nineball bucking. If it does, I'm planning on picking up an unbridged EdGI.
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Old 05-17-2017, 09:40 AM   #7
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very odd that none of them worked
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Old 05-17-2017, 11:10 AM   #8
 
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File off the bridge of the stock barrel and try it. I am finding it a little hard to believe that all those are bad. A bad AA barrel I will buy, I have 3.

I have an AA 6.01x430mm and it is not all that nice. In my main rifle I run a PDI 6.05x430mm, filed off the bridge and installed a ML Autobot 70, concave nub with AA chamber, no issues at all.
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Old 05-17-2017, 11:30 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plazmaburn View Post
File off the bridge of the stock barrel and try it. I am finding it a little hard to believe that all those are bad. A bad AA barrel I will buy, I have 3.

I have an AA 6.01x430mm and it is not all that nice. In my main rifle I run a PDI 6.05x430mm, filed off the bridge and installed a ML Autobot 70, concave nub with AA chamber, no issues at all.
Yeah i run a pdi witht the bridge filed off in my vsr and hi-capa both with MP buckings and they both shoot nice. something isnt right. and i agree it sounds like the barrel
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Old 05-17-2017, 12:02 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plazmaburn View Post
File off the bridge of the stock barrel and try it. I am finding it a little hard to believe that all those are bad. A bad AA barrel I will buy, I have 3.

I have an AA 6.01x430mm and it is not all that nice. In my main rifle I run a PDI 6.05x430mm, filed off the bridge and installed a ML Autobot 70, concave nub with AA chamber, no issues at all.
I'll check that once new bucking arrives, I'd rather not shave that bridge off just yet.
If I do I won't really be able to use the standard bucking that's sitting on it now and that's the only working setup I've got at the moment.
Once new bucking gets here and it won't solve the problem I'll know it's the barrel and I'll shave off that bridge.

I still believe it's the bucking though.
Once they're installed with the chamber and I apply pressure on the arm all 3 of the contact patches look really uneven when looking down the barrel from the exit side. No matter what's the angle of the barrel none of them go down the window evenly, which would explain the inconsistency.
Of course that still doesn't eliminate the possibility of a faulty barrel, but even when they're not installed the patches ain't pretty.
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Old 05-17-2017, 12:48 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ThatGuyIvory View Post
I'll check that once new bucking arrives, I'd rather not shave that bridge off just yet.
If I do I won't really be able to use the standard bucking that's sitting on it now and that's the only working setup I've got at the moment.
Once new bucking gets here and it won't solve the problem I'll know it's the barrel and I'll shave off that bridge.

I still believe it's the bucking though.
Once they're installed with the chamber and I apply pressure on the arm all 3 of the contact patches look really uneven when looking down the barrel from the exit side. No matter what's the angle of the barrel none of them go down the window evenly, which would explain the inconsistency.
Of course that still doesn't eliminate the possibility of a faulty barrel, but even when they're not installed the patches ain't pretty.
My stock tm vsr came with an unbridged barrel so i dont see why your other bucking wouldnt work with the bridge removed.
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Old 05-17-2017, 12:59 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerDad View Post
My stock tm vsr came with an unbridged barrel so i dont see why your other bucking wouldnt work with the bridge removed.


Agreed, filing off the bridge will not influence your standard buckings performance. TM pro-snipers come with an open window barrel and standard bucking stock.


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Old 05-17-2017, 02:18 PM   #13
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hmm for 600 FPS I'd have went the other way, and order a 75, as the manufacturer recommends


Still really weird that you don't get the right results with the bucking and nub that are renowned precisely for consistency.


In your place, I'd try with the Autobot 70 and the black concave nub, that's the combination that better works for me every time. Before putting the assembly back into the unit, check for the hop patch to come down evenly.


Other than that, it might not be a hop problem at all, but either a faulty AA barrel or just a bad case of crappy bbs of the bloating kind.


Ironically enough, poor quality bbs work better with crappy OEM barrels because of clearance (relatively larger bore). A friend of mine got that symptom when he first upgraded his M40A5: he was getting awful accuracy out of a Maple Leaf barrel, while getting quite better with the OEM one (both with a 75 Autobot bucking).


Turned out to be his WE bbs. They seemed OK, but had very minor diameter inconsistencies due to bloating, which make them work better with the wider bored OEM barrel.
Found the real problem a couple of weeks later, when he reached for his bag of bbs and got this beast of of it


Seriously. That's not an 8mm bb, those are 2 "6mm" bbs out of the same bag. Of course at the beginning it was not that noticeable, but that made us realize he got bad bbs.

As soon as he switched to Geoff's, his shots got much better with both barrels, and the ML one was allowed to shine, outperforming the OEM in every single way.
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Old 05-17-2017, 02:50 PM   #14
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To chime in to quickly cry and run away, haha, I also had issues with my ML set-up. Still having, as a matter of fact. Enough to where I'm saying screw it, and going the pain-in-the-arse-to-install rhop route.
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Old 05-17-2017, 10:34 PM   #15
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I have bought THREE AA chambers because of the love for them on this forum. I wrecked the first two on installation by tearing the head off the M3 screw that holds the chamber block to the chamber. (Yeah, I know it's my fault and I shouldn't have overtorqued but it didn't take much torque to pop the heads off the screws.)

I managed to fix the first one but I was getting disappointing range and accuracy, so I went back to the stock chamber. Then I got the second one and just decided to get a third when I wrecked the second one. Turns out I still had enormous trouble tuning the hopup -- it seems like the sweet spot window is about 1/4 of a turn on a 10-or-so-turn screw. And I was getting a lot of flyers and double feeds or failures to feed, unless I held the mag in.

I was using ML buckings with the AA chambers the whole time -- first Decepticon, then Monster.

Now I'm back to the stock TM chamber using an Autobots 60 bucking. I have no mods to the hopup arm but I can overhop 0.45s. I get about 200 real feet of effective range... I think my gun should be able to get more, but that's a different matter.

Anyway I wanted to share my story of not being so impressed with AA hopups... I should note I use a Mancraft SDiK and I think it's possible the Mancraft cylinder head doesn't work well with the AA hopup. (OP, do you use a stock cylinder head?)

Overall my conclusions has been that the AA hopup may be an improvement over JG or Well hopups, but it may not offer a noticeable improvement over a TM hopup.

my setup:
TM VSR-10 G-SPEC
compression: Mancraft SDiK, 2.28 joules
trigger: PDI v-trigger
barrel group: TM stock hopup, PDI 6.01x303
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