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Old 04-30-2017, 07:30 PM   #1
Young Gun
 
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Hop Up Nub Materials Idea

So I was weeding through forums, and found someone tinkering around with the idea of hot glue as a hop up nub. I wasn't sure if they were talking about forming the glue after it had been melted (difficult idea!) or about shaping and cutting down from the stick, or perhaps combining both and melting some down and then shaping it. It got me wondering to if similar applications could be used with silicone.

Guide: Cylinder head damper remold (bye bye sorbo)

I've done this mod, found it actually kind of fun to do, and a really nice way to alter the sound profile of the gun. And the combination of both the hot glue idea, and my previous experience with the caulking made me wonder if it would be possible, either to shape a nub from the unshaped caulking itself fresh from the tube, or if I could wait for a bit of it to dry and then attempt to make a nub from that.

Similarly, I was wondering if anyone had attempted to make a nub out of the the rhop material itself? I understand that the m nub is considered the best option, but I've heard of many options, from the use of delrin rods, to peices from formerly used barrels, to the use of HS5's snibbles HS Armory : Clandestine Airsoft, Your source for Airsoft parts and accessories
and I figured I'd ask.

Thanks for your time!
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Old 04-30-2017, 10:34 PM   #2
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I've tried all kinds of things for a nub, but I think it also depends what you're using for a hop. I found a really supple silicone that I'm making hops out of these days so a traditional rubber nub doesn't work as effectively anymore. Those white drafting erasers worked great on a maple leaf, but no good on the new silicone. So now I shape my nubs out of a hard plastic similar to the hop arm plastic.

I found making a nub out of r hop stuff makes for an unstable bb track in that you've got soft on top of soft. It works ok, but not awesome.

I guess as a final thought, you have to consider the hop material as well as the nub material and get them to work right together. When I'm shaping a nub I usually 'tune' it to the hop patch to get the image I'm looking for inside the barrel.

Fun topic! Thanks...
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Old 05-01-2017, 10:24 PM   #3
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Thanks for the informative reply! I know when I worked on the hop up, it took more patience than I had the capacity for in one sitting. I appreciate your point about the soft on soft issue. I may do some tests in the future with both the silicone material, and compare it to a pink eraser flat hop and m nub material (thank god for mcmaster carr). The hop arm material makes me think delrin might be a good option.
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Old 05-02-2017, 09:58 AM   #4
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No problem...we're all in this together. As for the patience part..no kidding! Doing an r hop properly, and tuning it properly, takes hours. The actual patch is a piece of cake, but getting the components to work together is the magic portion of the show. Then getting it to perform under load is a whole other matter. How the patch looks when you're looking down the bore with the hop up assembled and how it reacts under the pressure of air and BB is where it counts.

It's a good thing I've got a day job because I think I've spent way too many hours on this stuff. Then again, results and consistency are proof in the pudding I guess. Oh, one point to mention, if you're experimenting with different materials and want to see how they behave, make sure to always use the same rifle and barrel. That way you isolate your results to the patch and nothing else. Same goes for the arms, etc. When I was working on a new hop arm this winter, it was same rifle, different designs...until I hit the magic.

Now, one point to remember is that one design in one platform (eg, M16) will suck in another (eg, AK), simply based on the different dynamics of each platform. It ALL makes a difference.

As for delrin, why not? I keep a whole box of misc. junk just for testing...all part of the fun!
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Old 05-02-2017, 10:52 AM   #5
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I've been slowly accumulating materials and ideas for experiments, from different barrel materials and builds, to different nub ideas. I at one point had a thought of talking to a parts supplier or store and doing statistical testing of performance comparisons between upgrades (stock being the control). Only issue would be the problem of choosing between maximizing (whipping buckings, stabilizing barrels, shimming gears, checking motor heights), or just kind of half ass ballparking it. I feel that if I were to optimize the install on each one, it'd be truer scientific results, but that the actual difference in performance would be weak and small in difference (with some exceptions). The only real problem with this in the present market at least is that I hate.Hate.HATE. HHHHAAAATTTTEEEE working on v2 gearboxes, and specifically pulling them out of m4's. V3 is my jam . The only strength is that testing performance would be far easier in my present gun. APS UAR is FFFAAARRR easier to take down and work, and a far faster process. I totally agree with the reuse consistency though. Though by testing a rane of performance with each part isolated, you can then see how improved performance in one are affects stress or performance in another. I think I said it in another post, that the issue isn't change it's control.
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Old 05-02-2017, 11:39 AM   #6
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I sense some animosity towards V2's...bawwhaahaa!!! I have to agree, I like version 3 better as well. My AK is a cake walk. My G36 was even easier but I sold it...some of them just have to go, y'know? Must keep up the funding for further experiments.

I love APS rifles. My kid has one and wowee what a unit! As for testing, I'll try a bunch of different platforms so I can see how a certain mod will affect each one, and also see how much a mod will react to a stock component vs. aftermarket. In my last four test subjects, I've decided to use stock hop up units and barrels only. I do modify the stock components, but no PDI's or Prommys, no anodized aluminum, or any of that stuff. No sir, it's all boneyarded. Well, the results have really been turning my crank.

All four of my current AEG's are G&G Top Techs. The M16, the SCAR, the RK-104, and the GK5C. The GK5C is about 70% done, and the M16 and SCAR are still in the teething stage. The only field gun I have is the AK. When I say teething, I'm waiting for the springs to settle and the components to settle into a working groove where the grease has gone to where it's going to go, etc. The AK is V3, the rest, V2. The important common denominator seems to be the hops and barrels. Regardless of gearbox, if my air seal is correct, and the hop done right, All the gearbox does is supply a puff of air. hehehe. Well, not quite.

Regarding accuracy, I found a slower rate of fire is beneficial to accuracy and range. It seems to allow the system some time to recover between rounds. By making the hop more efficient, I'm still getting 420 fps out of an M110 spring. Really. When the spring settles, it'll stay at a steady 410 fps. A 110 spring means very little stress one the gearbox and I can run all day with a 9.6v nunchuck. But, it's all thanks to an efficient hop up. Engineering front to back instead of back to front...so far so good.
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Old 05-02-2017, 11:13 PM   #7
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I'm not gonna lie, it sounds like that inconsistency may be related to sorbo padding the AOE. have you tried the silicone damper head mod (i mentioned it in my first post) it's really quite the easy mod, cheap, and I'm not gonna lie damn nice. Changes the sound profile. I would read the whole thread to get an idea about what you're doing, but it's totally worth it so far.

I totally understand the teething, gotta let the grease settle into place. As far as direction goes (I think of the motor as the back) I usually plan and try to work back to front, with the piston as the main link between the two. I find working on the drive train to be less finicky and try and test, more of the simple "here's what to do to put this in, here's what it affects, here's how to adjust" idea rather than the try, test, guess test, guess test, try test of air seal and front end components. Though I have to admit that not having a place to test has been a major issue. Ideally I would do the front just to isolate issues, not having to screw with compression and knowing it'll fire mostly when I need to adjust the drive train, but just not possible right now.

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Old 05-03-2017, 09:01 AM   #8
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Inconsistency? No man. On any of the rifles I'm out +/- 2fps at the most. That's pretty spot on. I finished the GK5C last night. my variance is 1 fps. That's it. Chronos between 399 and 400 fps no matter how many I put through it. That's spot on! Or are you referring to the spring drop? In that case, it's normal and calculated metal fatigue...

I tried sorbo in my G36 and yes it did quiet the noise down, but made it spongy in the air delivery. The new rifles get a different material for AOE and they've tightened right up.

As for fixing the 'engine' before looking at the gears, that's the same as putting a big block in a hot rod without looking at the gear ratios behind it. If you have shitty tires all the horsepower in the world won't get you to the finish line in a consistent time bracket. Pew is no different. If the air seal is bad, you're doing work for nothing. If the air seal is pristine, you can considerably drop the jam in your gearbox saving battery life, wear and tear on all the components, etc,etc. My gearbox has been in the AK for two years now. It's fired a bazillion rounds and when you listen to it, you can tell it isn't even working...because it doesn't have to. Same for all the guns. Why not get 420 fps on a 110 spring? I can launch .3's out of these rifles like nobody's business because of the efficiency of the compression system, not the gearbox.

When we engineer machines here (day job) we don't modify the machine for the job (well in the end we do), we look at the job and decide which machine will be the most cost effective and efficient to do the task. We look for the machine that will require the least amount of modification for the required work. Otherwise you're building a machine without knowing what the end game is and hoping it will work for that job.

The only thing a gearbox does is deliver a measured shot of air. Period. After that it's all the front end components that make it count. Mind you, I'm not after 30 rps and I don't play CQB, I look at my rifles like electric snipers. Really long range, quiet, but much slacker than a bolt gun. hehehehe
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Old 05-03-2017, 11:19 AM   #9
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What material are you using for AOE? I'm definitely interested in this, would love to experiment with different sound profiles. Wasn't trying to assume you weren't getting consistency, just wasn't sure if it might be a problem ^_^ I would love to see your take on sealing for compression between the gearbox and into the barrel. I've been able to do it completely in the gearbox, it's the rest of the compression that I have an issue with. I totally agree with going front to back (barrel backwards), just not presently much of an option testing wise or build wise until I find a place for testing range and consistency. I'll probably pm you later for tossing some ideas by you. Thanks for all the input, I'm super excited by the interest and ability to discuss airsoft with other enthusiasts. I really appreciate your insight into the separation between "engine" and "wheels" hehehe, thanks again for all the insight and input.
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Old 05-03-2017, 12:49 PM   #10
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Oh hey, this thread has been super refreshing, really. This has been some solid thinking and I always appreciate that immensely. Can't go wrong with decent discussion, y'know?

As for AOE material, truth be told, nothing. Remember the 'soft on soft' idea? BAD. hahaha. So, I remove the factory rubber and put a hard shim behind it. That way I still get a nice positive smack without the piston going all goofy in the cylinder. Sure an additional layer quiets things down, but I prefer things to be a little more 'positive'. Here's a cool tip. The stock polymer Combat Machine piston heads are absolutely awesome. I now favour them over aluminium. They flow air like crazy and don't weigh anything so it lowers the inertia of the piston slightly while still maintaining excellent air seal. Truth be told, I use mostly stock parts in my gearboxes. Unless I can't polish the scratches out of a cylinder, I reuse those too. In the GK5C I even used the crappy plastic cylinder head, just made it seal better. Once you've got ball bearings on everything there's very little resistance on the internal components, thus very little heat and less energy required to make them go.

As for sealing between gearbox and barrel, use as soft a bucking as possible. I love the cheapie green G&G buckings. Now, one thing not many people do is align the gearbox to the barrel. Usually it's slam er together and go thinking as two different units. I precisely align the nozzle into the center of the barrel to try and get a super good seal on the bucking as well as uniform air dispersion once the air shot leaves the nozzle. In the GK5C I even engineered a flaw to get it down to 400fps. I used a nozzle with no o-ring in it to bleed of a little air uniformly so I wouldn't blow it at the chrono. Our field limit is 420 fps and I have two guns that are sitting right at 420 while I wait for the springs to stretch. Sure, they'll settle, but it's aggravating that I can't use them TODAY. hahahaha. So, when I put the GK together, I purposefully found a bagged spring and purposefully found the cheapie nozzle with no o-ring...and presto! 400 fps...all day.

In the hot rod biz, we used to call it sandbagging. Purposefully dumbing down a car to get it into the next time bracket...but still having lots of reserve and exhibiting very little wear on the components. We could do a bunch of 1/4 mile passes without even checking the oil. hahahaha

...and as always, thank you as well. This kind of discussion gets me thinking too! I hear ya that without a place to test, this can be very aggravating. I have a chrono and short range in the basement to test for function, but I get to go out to the family farm to stretch them out for real. That's a huge plus.
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Old 05-06-2017, 10:38 PM   #11
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I apologize for the length of time between replies, I'm in the middle of finals as a college student and also started a high stress job with no prior experience (yeah, the timing hasn't helped either but it's totally worth it)

I chrono in may basement. How long is yours? I might start doing it just because my itch to tech overwhelms my desire to produce scientifically and statistically sound results. I like your AOE idea, I wonder if reinforcing the sorbo or in my case silicone, with a harder material would make it more resistant and last longer. I'll have to check out combat machine pistons, and I totally agree with keeping your materials. I've gone through multiple internal sets and I keep them all, just in case a flaw or issue in one can be worked again for a new setup. I am going to inquire about the bucking, I was under the impression that the harder a bucking was the better the air seal, while the softer it was the better the hop (hence the reason a hard bucking works in r hop set ups as the air seal material only). But if I'm wrong I'm happy to adjust my materials. I'm honestly far less of an engineer so much as a tester, I can't imagine using an intentional flaw in air seal to create a better consistent system, though I have found that the quick change spring systems available in some AEG's is totally worth it in this aspect.
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Old 05-07-2017, 01:41 AM   #12
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Ah yes, college, I know it well. My son just finished last week. He's pretty damned happy to be done with it all I finished about 23 years ago, but I hate it like it was yesterday. hahaha

How long is the range? In the basement, not much. But the shop is 300 feet indoors. As mentioned, outdoor is almost infinite. hehehe.

Hey man, this whole airsoft thing is all about experimentation and just trying stuff. I've had some super catastrophic fails, which in turn become great learning experiences, so nothing lost, really. The GK5C was a wizard level origami experience, but we got er!! Nothing ventured nothing gained and all that sort of thing. As for intentional loss, just something else to experiment with.

Good luck with your finals!!
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Old 05-19-2017, 11:53 AM   #13
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