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Maple leaf buckings (& why you should use them)

137K views 160 replies 50 participants last post by  FartinLutherKing 
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
Hey guys,

There seems to be a lot of confusion about all the different variants of maple leaf buckings, which one is the best, what do you need to use one, what's the difference, etc.

So, I've made a video to explain it once and for all 😁



For those who don't like the audiovisual explanation, here's the write-up containing pretty much the same info.

Maple leaf buckings have a concave contact patch rather than a traditional hopup mound. This is the same principle as an R-hop, more contact surface = more backspin + more consistency.

VSR buckings

I'm going to cover VSR buckings first, as the whole story mostly applies to VSR buckings. Maple leaf essentially makes two types of buckings: the delta variant and the diamond variant. To further complicate things, there are the old buckings (called diamond & delta buckings) and there are the new buckings (called autobot and decepticon). This image basically covers them all:

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The difference is in the shape of the contact patch. While they are all concave, the delta patches have a triangle shape which ends in a single point. So the last contact with the bb is a single point. The diamond is split in the end and therefore has two contact points, which is more consistent and thus more accurate (theoretically). My personal experience also tells me the same. However, the delta has more contact area than the diamond because the patch is not split, so it could lift heavier bb's with the same fps. That being said, they both have concave patches and both can produce plenty enough lift, so I would say the diamond version is the best one :tup:

The difference between the old and the new buckings is not that great. The new ones have an anti-blow ring and are made of a different rubber, that's pretty much it. However, the new ones seem to wear a lot faster from what I've seen. I don't know if that's due to the different rubber, but I personally prefer the old one (the diamond one). If that's not available, then I would opt for the autobot instead.

Things to keep in mind

Now that we've discussed buckings, I should mention something you need to use this bucking (any of the VSR ML buckings): you will need an open, non-bridged barrel window. Which looks like this:

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This is because the patch runs all the way to the back of the bucking, so it won't fit over a bridged barrel. If you have a bridged barrel, you can always file it off. If you don't have a barrel yet, I would recommend buying an action army VSR barrel, those are unbridged :tup:

The next thing you'll need along with any maple leaf bucking is a concave nub. M-nubs and flat nubs also work, but the concave is best since it applies the most even pressure. Maple leaf makes concave nubs. When used in a VSR however, this is a problem, as the VSR chamber won't accept aftermarket nubs. This can be solved by buying an AA chamber (one of the many advantages) which simply accepts aftermarket nubs.

If you don't want an AA chamber for whatever silly reason, then you can also opt for the special arm ML makes for the VSR chamber. This replaces the stock arm. They do suffer from poor quality control though, so it's a bit of a gamble whether you get a good arm. The AA chamber really is the best option (as usual) :hehe:

Different platforms

If you don't have a VSR however, then you can't use a VSR AA chamber. If you have a type 96, then you can get the type 96 AA chamber, but that one takes AEG barrels and buckings. Fortunately, maple leaf also makes AEG buckings!

Natural material Magenta Cylinder Writing implement Tints and shades



Unfortunately, for some silly reason, they only make AEG buckings in the "delta" variant. So you can't get the diamond patch if you're using an AEG ML. The delta is not as good as the diamond, it's more like a flat hop while a diamond is more like an R-hop. That being said, it's still pretty darn good, and your best bet if you're not going to do an actual R-hop.

The AEG ML bucking obviously also requires the ML concave nub. What it does not need however, is an unbridged barrel. The AEG ML bucking does fit on a bridged barrel. There aren't even any non-bridged AEG barrels for as far as I know anyway. So you don't need to worry about that if you're using the AEG version in a type 96.

If you're installing this in a DMR (with an AEG chamber) then it is pretty much the same case :tup:

If you have an L96 AWS instead, then you can also install the maple leaf. The L96 AWS takes VSR barrels/buckings, so you can use the diamond bucking along with a VSR barrel. Along with the ML nub, of course. I have described how to install that in the stock L96 AWS chamber here (it's pretty straightforward):

Upgrading an L96 AWS platform

The last common platform these can be installed into is the KJW M700. These also take VSR barrels and buckings, but not the nub (and chamber, obviously). Fortunately, the stock M700 nub is already concave, and works pretty well so far in the setup I'm currently using, so I would recommend just using the stock nub along with the ML bucking here :hehe:

You can even install the ML in TM-style pistols. Maple leaf makes a "key" which fits into the TM-style GBB chamber, allowing you to use these buckings in GBB pistols as well! Gotta love this company 🙇

Bucking hardness

The last factor is the hardness of the bucking, measured in degrees. The lower the number, the softer the rubber, the higher the harder. Generally, for some reason, manufacturers recommend extremely hard buckings for high fps guns like the sniper rifles we use on this forum, such as 80 degrees. That is however, way too hard. I would personally never use any harder than 70 degree. Any harder, and you're really suffering accuracy, because the harder the rubber, the less grip you will have and the less consistent it will be. If you go softer than 70 degrees however, your bucking will start to wear out faster. 70 degrees last for a very long time however. Compare it to racing tyres, harder rubber = less grip but more durability. Softer rubber = more grip but wears out faster.

You can also go softer than 70 degrees. I personally like 60 degrees nowadays. You can expect a 60 degree maple leaf to last about 10k shots, which is still a lot. It's a tad more accurate than 70 degrees and has a bit more grip, but they will both work just fine. I would not however put 50 in a 500 fps gun as it will wear very quick and you may get airseal issues due to the soft rubber :hehe:

I think that covers everything! If you have any questions or remarks, be sure to post them here or just shoot me a PM :yup:

Cheers, :)
Reliku
 

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#2 · (Edited)
Great, just watching the video now.

I've ordered maple leaf rubber and nub as shown in the picture below. I bought the 70* hardness rubber.
Do you feel these would be a good combo?

This is all new territory for me, I used to run a simple nineball in the standard vsr hop unit with good results but things have changed a fair bit in the years I stopped playing.

 
#3 ·
Yes, that seems to be the one. That bucking doesn't exactly look like the right one but if it's indeed the "monster" bucking for the VSR then it will be the diamond version. If it's the delta bucking then it's specifically advertised as such :tup:
 
#5 ·
Hi Reliku,

The hop rubber I bought was this one:
http://www.ebairsoft.com/mapleleaf-monster-hopup-rubber-marui-pistol-p-6569.html

It lists VSR in the description so I assumed it was suitable :)

The nub was a little harder to find. I had to order an AEG rubber and nub combo just for the nub. I got that one here: Maple Leaf Hybrid Hop Up Rubber Set 70 Degree for AEG - Buy airsoft Accessories online from RedWolf Airsoft

Note, obviously I'm only using the nub from this combo and the rubber will no doubt go in the bin as I had no need for it.
 
#6 ·
#7 ·
That looks like it would work, yes :tup:

The nub is pretty hard to find generally. I don't know why, but they're always sold out for some reason :hehe:

EDIT: The one Plazma linked is indeed the correct one. But they're essentially the same. The blue nub is a bit softer than the black one though, so the black one is preferred, but both will work ;)
 
#32 ·
#8 ·
Reliku, do you have any data on how the ML buckings compare to an rhop?

I was thinking of trying the new ML buckings, but unsure if they're worth it or I should just rhop it instead?

Oh, also- what is your preferred ML setup? I read that you prefer diamond, but is that the old or new diamond type bucking?
 
#9 ·
A well done Rhop is better than a ML bucking, but it will also take a large amount more work to install and get done right. If you're after pure performance and are willing to deal with the Rhop hassle, it will be superior. But if you're looking for a quick and easy install, just go maple leaf.
 
#10 ·
Nice write up, very informative! I can't wait to watch the video once I get home, although I already know this topic very well. Hopefully this will help to curb some of the redundant questions regarding VSR style buckings.

You get a gold star for the day Reliku!

+1 vote to get this sticked


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#11 ·
I prefer the old diamond yes, it's the most consistent one in my experience.

I haven't seen any performance from the R-hop that was really outstandingly better than the maple leaf. Then again, I haven't done an awful lot of R-hops myself either. But then again, I haven't encountered other people with R-hops who were more accurate than a maple leaf. And while it's possible that I just suck at doing R-hops, it would be a little far fetched to state that all those people I've compared to also had poor R-hops.

R-hop does have more contact surface though, so theoretically, it is better, especially when it comes to heavy (really heavy) bb's. But my personal opinion is that they're pretty similar in terms of performance :tup:
 
#12 ·
Maple leaf buckings (& why you should use them)

I have a question, slightly off topic but still related to buckings.

How does the hardness of the nub effect hop performance?

For example, some rifles use a brass nub which is unyielding. Does a harder nub provide more hop, and is there any reason why one would want a "softer" nub? Or are metal nubs intended for R-hop & not so much for a maple leaf bucking?

Basically what I am getting at is, what would happen if I dropped a brass nub in with a maple leaf 60degree bucking?

Edit: does a softer nub provide more grip on the bb?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#13 ·
I have a question, slightly off topic but still related to buckings.

How does the hardness of the nub effect hop performance?

For example, some rifles use a brass nub which is unyielding. Does a harder nub provide more hop, and is there any reason why one would want a "softer" nub? Or are metal nubs intended for R-hop & not so much for a maple leaf bucking?

Basically what I am getting at is, what would happen if I dropped a brass nub in with a maple leaf 60degree bucking?

Edit: does a softer nub provide more grip on the bb?

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This is a very interesting topic, and is something I am currently working on sorting out on my own dmr build. From my own tests, a very hard nub (brass, hard plastic, etc) does not work very well because it doesn't allow the bucking to conform to the contours of the BB. If this is placed in a flat hop or standard mound bucking, it causes the bucking to only have one, very small point of contact with the BB which in turn means an inconsistent hop. This is because the BB doesn't seat in the same position each time. Now, if you had something like a concave nub that was very hard, and matched the bucking's shape, you could theoretically get the BB to seat at the exact same spot. I theorize this would lead to pretty good/consistent performance.

On the other hand, if a nub is too soft, the pressure it applies down on the bucking becomes uneven and inconsistent. As a BB passes beneath the nub/bucking, it can shift the nub slightly and again lead to unstable or inconsistent hop.

The ideal is between the two (unsurprisingly) You want something that will contour to the BB, but still remain stiff enough to hold its own shape and apply even/constant pressure.

To answer your question about using a hard nub in a maple leaf, I think you might be able to get away with it mostly because there's more rubber beneath the maple leaf which means there's more squish. A few of the maple leaf arms are already metal, and the normal tensioner rubber is pretty tough. I don't think it should hurt too much so long as you have it in the right shape.
 
#15 ·
Like Whale says, hard nubs only work in applications where only a little pressure is needed, such as with R-hops or maple leafs. If you put a hard nub on a normal bucking then it won't yield when the bb passes underneath which is obviously no good. It can lead to jams and it is less consistent because the nub's shape doesn't follow the bb's shape.

However, with a concave nub/bucking, this is not the case. You only need a very tiny amount of pressure and the concave nub already has the shape of the bb. Therefore hard nubs do work with R-hops and maple leafs, but not so well with normal buckings :tup:

The nub I use in my M700 is actually a solid nub :hehe:
 
#16 ·
I was asking specifically about R-hop and ML buckings. A metal nub will obviously cause issues in a traditional mound style bucking.

So is there no "real" benefit to utilizing a solid metal nub?

Are they meant to provide extra hop when lifting heavyweight BBs (.66g)? Or is a metal nub more of a longevity part?


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#17 ·
Metal nubs are mostly used to lift very heavy bb's yes, durability is the same. Nubs don't wear out :hehe:

But no, I wouldn't say there's a real benefit when using normal bb's. Using super heavy bb's however, the metal nub is able to apply more pressure because it doesn't deform like a rubber nub. But they obviously get pinch jams a lot sooner if you're not careful :yup:
 
#19 ·
Reliku seeing that you understand maple leaf buckings and nubs in general, would you say it is also possible to get pinch jam when using ml bucking with ml cnc hop up arm in stock vsr chamber?
 
#20 ·
Yes. But you'd have to turn it all the way down.

All types of hopup can get a pinch jam if you apply too much force, which usually happens if you try to lift bb's that are too heavy for your hopup/fps to handle. It doesn't really happen with the maple leafs during normal use because they can generate plenty of lift in 500 fps guns, but it will happen if you try to lift a .45 bb with 300 fps, for example :hehe:

But generally speaking, nothing to worry about :tup:
 
#21 ·
Thanks for this thread Reliku. Saves me having to explain all this when people PM me. I can now just give them this link. :)
 
#24 ·
Buy any other brand VSR barrel such as a PDI one and it will be bridged. But the only reason to get a bridged barrel is if you want to do an R-hop or flat-hop. I would just use a maple leaf if I were you :tup:
 
#26 ·
If it is your first time doing an R-hop, it's probably going to take a while. Kind of just how it is. I wouldn't say it's extremely difficult, it's just a pain in the rear and takes time and patience. Alternatively, you could always just file off the bridge and use a maple if you're lazy :p (just be easy on the filing so you don't dink your barrel)
 
#28 · (Edited)
Hi guys.. been quite a while absent from these forums (left the sniping aside as I was elected team leader), but recently I've been trying the Maple Leafs buckings and felt the need to share the results...

To begin with, these things are amazing. We are using Maple Leaf Autobot + ML concave nub + ML inner barrels in our WE GBB AK, RPK and SVD, and the results are out of this world. Best precision combo ever.

From my personal experience the Deltas are just decent while the Diamonds are awesome, as the latter provides extreme range. The RPK is reaching out to 80m at 420FPS measured w/.20s with an Autobot 70º + ML concave nub + ML 6.02 540mm GBB inner barrel, shooting .30s. That's a full auto, support weapon (local limits for that category are 430FPS w/.20s) that can outreach most snipers.
The SVD is reaching even further, 90m+ at 490FPS w/.20 (local limit 500) using .40s with an Autobot 80º + ML concave nub + ML 6.02 590mm "for VFC M40A5" adapted to the GBB platform by machining the side grooves.

I prefer the new Autobot/Decepticon series for the included ABB ring, as it really grips the nozzle, something critical for GBB consistency. Might not be that necessary for bolt action snipers though. In my personal experience, these things outperform r-hops and anything-hop, as they provide superior air seal to any hop rubber you could use as base for the r-hops, while perfectly aligning the bb, something r-hops and such might not be that great at.

As for durability, I've seen no difference between the old and the new, it's just getting the correct hardness. The manufacture's guideline is pretty useful for that:


btw, I don't think the Maple Leaf hop up arm have QC issues, afaik it is purposely designed with oversized side tabs that must be filed down to perfectly suit your chamber, as the VSR chambers tolerances (specially in the many, many clones) are all over the place.

As for the AEG buckings, they are Deltas and therefore not-so-good, but you missed the other option: for AEG use (and that includes the most popular L96s chambers) you can go with Maple Leaf Hybrid buckings, which fit in AEG chambers but using Maple Leaf GBB inner barrels. Haven't tried that option yet (I'm a GBB guy p) but theoretically it should work great.

Long stoy short: go for it. I'm sure you guys won't regret it. The inner barrels are extremely good quality at decent price, the buckings are hands down the best available, and going the full Maple Leaf route with both + ML concave nub is imho the closest to perfection these guns can get.

Beware of energy creep though, it can get really messy.
 
#29 ·
I already gave you some comments on youtube :hehe:

but you missed the other option: for AEG use (and that includes the most popular L96s chambers) you can go with Maple Leaf Hybrid buckings, which fit in AEG chambers but using Maple Leaf GBB inner barrels. Haven't tried that option yet (I'm a GBB guy p) but theoretically it should work great.
That's true, those do work, but they don't align as well in AEG chambers because an AEG-specific chamber is built to lock down the barrel and have the bucking lock over that. A non-AEG barrel can't be locked down in such a chamber as well.

This is also why VSRs are yet again better. The barrel is locked down AND the bucking is locked down seperately ;)

I don't think the Maple Leaf hop up arm have QC issues, afaik it is purposely designed with oversized side tabs that must be filed down to perfectly suit your chamber, as the VSR chambers tolerances (specially in the many, many clones) are all over the place.
I don't think that is the case as I have seen entirely off-center arms while others were just fine & straight. That's QC if you ask me :hehe:
 
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