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Old 04-30-2017, 10:52 PM   #1
Young Gun
 
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Why airsoft guns are not that accurate (long grab some coffee)

Let me preface this novel by stating these are only MY opinions and ramblings on the subject based on events in MY life. I am not an engineer nor am I an accredited scientist. I do however have an associates degree in aircraft maintenance along with military training and 4 years experience wrenching on fighter jets. Mainly on air and hydraulics systems. I have a basic knowledge of machining and like to tinker. I also don't claim to know everything (I know I can come off that way at times). If you think I am full of crap or a bit off feel free to call me on it. You won't hurt my feelings I promise. However if you do call me on something don't just say "Your full of crap!" and then have nothing to back it up. I will want to discuss it. If I find out I am wrong or something simply doesn't make sense I will own up to it. But if it is something I have seen for myself, I am sorry I can't un see something I have seen after all. These ramblings I post are really just for entertainment and to get people thinking. I am old enough to know that some things that shouldn't work do, and some things that look good on paper or in theory just don't work when you put them to practical use.

So...
Why your airsoft rifle just isn't that accurate


Of all the weapons platforms I have used Airsoft seems to be the least accurate. And I would like to discuss why I feel this is so. First a little background on me. Since I was young I have been an avid shooter and archer. I have hunted and competed on a regional level in archery, airgun, rimfire, black powder and 6mm bench rest. I will be honest and tell you I have never won any titles, awards or trophies, on my best days I would consider myself an average competitor. I am not the worst shot in the world, but I am by far the best, or even close to being in the top tier. And it had nothing to do with the fact that other shooters were sponsored or had better equipment than I did. They were just simply more dedicated or more skilled than I was. Now I just shoot for fun with no stress or pressure, and I like it that way. I do however have enough experience that I know the mechanics behind it and what makes a platform accurate, or in this case not so accurate.

I am not here to talk down on airsoft or say that the guns are worthless pieces of junk. They are accurate enough for what they need to be, are a blast to shoot, cheap to shoot, and holy crap, you can shoot other people with them! For a low powered non lethal gun they actually shoot better than I would have thought they could. They are more accurate than paint ball markers, which I have experimented with as well. I simply want to discuss the mechanics behind it and why they are flawed from the start where accuracy is concerned.


Let me first define what I consider to be “accurate”. To me, an accurate platform is anything that can repeatedly shoot 3 inch groups at its effective range. I know you will hear a lot of people talk about sub MOA groups at hundreds of yards. While it can be done, most of it is just talk. I have very rarely met a person that can actually shoot as well as they claim when talking themselves up. And the ones that can shoot that well normally don't brag about it. MOA is Minute of Angle and it equals 1 inch at 100 yards. 3 inch groups at 100 yards would be 3 MOA, and I would consider this average for most shooters and rifles that have that kind of range. Rimfire rifle I consider to be 50 yard weapons and air rifles about 20 or 30 meters. Modern archery is actually more accurate than you might think, I can hold 3 to 4 inch groups at 70 meters IF I KNOW THE YARDARGE! At those ranges being 5 yards off can make a big difference in your impact points.


For hunting I call it Minute of Deer, which means if you can put your shots in an 8 inch circle it will humanely kill the animal. You simply don't need to shoot sub MOA groups to hunt medium to large game. Long range varmint hunting is another story though. For airsoft I call it Minute of People. Lets be honest, all you really need is to be able to hit a human sized target anywhere on the body, at fairly close ranges. This roughly equates to a 4 foot tall by 2 foot wide target. And you don't have to hit them in the vitals, you just need to make contact. If you drop a shot 2 feet low and hit them in the ankle it is still a kill. And if they are honest and call their shots you only need to do it once. Unlike real game where it might take multiple shots to actually stop the target. And in most cases, lets be honest, you can do this without using sights. Sure that big scope or fancy eotech sight looks cool as hell, but you really don't need it to be effective. Decent open sights or a simple reflex sight is more than enough.



If you use my 3 inch group theory, then most decent airsoft guns have an effective range of around 20 or 30 yards, maybe. This means 20 yards is about the distance one of these guns can effectively shoot a 3 to 4 inch group. I understand some people have airsoft rifles that are much more accurate than this, if you are one of these people I tip my hat to you and say consider yourself blessed. Inside of 20 yards most of my guns are actually pretty accurate and quite fun to shoot ( I currently own 8 airsoft guns.). My M4 and P90 will easily rip single holes about 1 inch in diameter in full auto at 10 yards.



That being said, 3 inch groups really are not a fair standard for airsoft. That is actually way more accurate then you realistically need to get the job done. For airsoft you really only need to be able to put a bb in a 24 x 48 inch area at a given range. So the effective range of an airsoft rifle becomes the distance at which you can consistently hit a 2 foot by 4 foot target ( human torso). For most airsoft guns this can be achieved at 50 or60 yards, for a well tuned gun or a decent sniper rifle 300 feet (100 yards) is not unheard of and seems to be the goal most aim for. Then when you factor in most airsoft guns are quiet, have little to no recoil and bb's are cheap follow up shots are not an issue. If it takes you 5 or 6 shots to walk a bb onto a target it isn't the end of the world. And to be perfectly honest in real combat this happens more often than you would think. This is one of the reasons real snipers have spotters.


So why cant your 300 dollar, or in some cases your custom rifle you have way more into, spit bb's into a 1 or 2 inch circle at 100 yards like a real AR or Remingtion 700?


What is the number one factor in accuracy? Consistency, that is quite literally the definition of accuracy. Being able to repeatedly do something with the same outcome. An accurate weapons platform needs to be consistent from shot to shot. Without that, all hope is lost. Unfortunately airsoft guns fail at this on several levels.



The number one thing airsoft rifles have against them is BB's. To be perfectly blunt, round projectiles suck. There is a reason no weapons use round balls anymore. One of the biggest advancements in weapons technology was switching from round ball to conical bullets. After that would be rifling and percussion caps. This is why your daisy or crossman .177 bb/pellet gun will always be more accurate with pellets instead of bb's. A bullet is longer than it is wide. And it either has rifling to spin it on axis or is heavier in front with a skirt in the back. This makes the projectile more stable while in flight. Added mass doesn't hurt either. Bullets and pellets are also normally slightly larger than the bore, or have a soft skirt in the back that expands under pressure. This gives a better seal and more uniform pressures and velocities. BB's are normally hard and slightly smaller than the bore so they can more easily get down the barrel and not get stuck. The downside is gas is wasted going around the projectile and they are not very stable once they leave the barrel.


And to make matters worse for airsoft we use extremely light bb's that are not very consistent. Weights seem to be pretty good from bb to bb (because they are so light to begin with) but diameter, shape, internal consistency, surface texture and balance tend to not be very good. I don't care if you have the best, straightest, laser polished barrel that is accurate to .0001 of an inch, if your bbs are not perfectly round and sized it was a total and complete waste of effort. And I have measured bb's that were off by more than a thousands of an inch from one spot to another, let alone from bb to bb. This means they are not perfectly round, or balanced. And the way the bb's are constructed doesn't help either. They are designed to be light, hard and fragile. They are made to do the least amount of damage as possible when hitting a target. We don't want them to carry a lot of energy, and we want them to shatter when they hit something hard. Neither of these are good qualities when looking for an accurate projectile.


In the world of long range precision shooting 30 caliber is pretty much where it's at. So a .308 or 7-8mm projectile that weighs between 150 and 170 grains. This gives you a bullet that has a length that is long enough compared to its diameter to give you a good ballistics coefficient. And even though it may not shoot as flat as a lighter faster bullet, it tends to be more accurate when it actually gets there. The shape of the bullet also effects its BC. You don't just want a solid cylindrical slug sailing through the air. You want it to be air efficient and well balanced. And with a real projectile we normally look for something that is hard enough to hold its shape when moving at high speeds, yet soft enough to form to the barrel and expand when it hits a target. But still not being so hard that it doesn't break apart and shed off energy. None of these are qualities a 4 grain plastic bb posses. Ok, so a bb doesn't travel at 1 or 2 thousand feet per second, it is more like 300 to 400 fps.



You know what goes about that speed and is very accurate? An arrow that is an average of 28 inches long, weighs 450 grns has a balance point about 1/3 from the front and has large fletchings to create drag and stabilize it. Even a .177 caliber lead pellet weighs between 7 and 10 grains and is about twice as long as it wide. And is made of soft lead. You can buy very hard alloy pellets that are light, but I can assure you they are not very accurate. They are fast, but not particularly accurate in most guns. Mostly they are made so airgun manufacturers can say their specific rifle shoots 1200 fps or faster. Sort of the same thing as testing an airsoft gun with .12 or .20 bb's. The numbers look impressive, but its probably not what you are actually going to use in the field.


The next hurtle is how the bb's are propelled from the barrel. In order for a projectile to be accurate at a certain range it needs to leave the barrel at the same velocity from shot to shot. Unfortunately because of the power systems, and because of the bb's airsoft guns are not very good at this. Green gas being the worst, then unregulated CO2, after that AEG's and then spring sniper rifles. There is a reason HPA guns are more accurate, it is because they do a better job of metering the air charge. They also dump a lot more air behind the bb which reduces the effect of air leaking around the bb. It still does it obviously, it is just that there is enough air that it doesn't effect the velocity from shot to shot. And with the polarstar system there is a whole slew of adjustments you can make to effect the pressure, duration and timing of the air charge. You want range and accuracy, use a wide bore barrel and flood that sucker with air. Down side is uses more air and you get less shots per bottle. If you want to conserve air, use a tight bore barrel and use just enough air to get the velocities you want. Down side, not quite as accurate as the wide bore.



I would say the next best system would be regulated CO2. As long as you are not making rapid shots and the tank pressure is higher than the regulator pressure it should be pretty consistent. Green gas, propane and unregulated CO2 just isn't very consistent from shot to shot due to the cooling effect as the gas is expended and changes from a liquid to a gas. And the faster you shoot, the worse it gets.


Manual spring guns (sniper rifles) are not too bad. If you have a good spring and a well sealed system they can be pretty consistent. Better than green gas for sure. And AEG's tend to not be real consistent either. I don't know if it is because of the electrical mechanics, the piston seal or type of springs they use. Or most likely a combination of all those factors. What this means is even if you had perfect bb's, a perfect barrel with a tight seal and your velocities had a standard deviation of 50 fps or more you can pretty much kiss any kind of real accuracy goodbye. At longer ranges anyway. Inside of 10 or 15 yards it probably wouldn't have a large effect. And the slower your projectile the more that spread has an effect. If you are shooting 2500 fps with a 170 grn bullet then a standard deviation of 50 might not be too bad (I would want better), But with a 4 grain bb moving 275 to 300 fps that is a big deal. And with a bow that would be horrible. If you were seeing variations like that you better be checking our arrow weights, or the limbs and cams on your bow. I would actually worry for my safety if my bow had that kind of spread from arrow to arrow.


Another factor would be the receiver and barrel system. For accuracy you want a rigid sight, receiver and barrel connection. Both inner barrel and outer barrel. I have seen some AEG's where you can grab the outer barrel and wiggle it, my 249 saw does this because of the way the barrel connects. This is not good for accuracy. This brings us to barrel spacers/bushings. To be honest, you really only need one at the muzzle end of the barrel. You only need enough support to make sure the barrel is pointed in the same direction from shot to shot. Vibration and harmonics really don't play much of a part in airsoft. There simply isn't enough energy produced to cause barrel whip like on a high powered rifle. As long as your outer barrel is rigid and tight with the receiver one bushing or O-ring at the muzzle end to center the inner barrel should be plenty. And obviously you want your hop up to be solidly mounted as well. I don't care how tight your inner barrel fits, if you can wiggle your outer barrel it is a lost cause.



How do I know barrel vibration and whip is not issue with an airsoft rifle? Because it is not an issue with high powered air guns. My pellet gun can shoot a 10 grain lead pellet at 900 fps. The piston hits home hard enough to create reverse recoil and destroy cheap scopes. And the barrel isn't affixed to the receiver, it breaks open just before the scope mount. Barrel vibration isn't an issue in these rifles. Overall vibration is though, this is why they require a different and more consistent hold to be accurate. If you hold the gun tight for one shot, then loose for the next it will actually change the impact point of the pellet. This is why PCP (HPA) air guns are so much better. They are way more forgiving to shoot accurately. I have tried this technique with airsoft guns and it didn't seem to make a difference, so the shock and vibration must not be bad enough have an effect on the over all system. However, if you are shooting a bolt sniper gun with a heavy spring that shoots over 550 fps it wouldn't hurt to emulate the shooting form of a good spring air gun shooter.


And this brings us to everyone's favorite part of the airsoft gun. The magical part that lets us shoot a light 4 grain round bb moving at 300 fps out to 100 feet or more. The Hop Up! Some genius figured out that by using simple physics and aero dynamics we could put a back spin on the bb giving it lift and defying gravity enough to double or triple the effective range at lower velocities. Unfortunately the physics behind the hop up system are actually horrible for accuracy lol. Adding friction to the top of the bb at the beginning of the barrel just intensifies and exaggerates every other flaw in the system.


Think of how the hop up system works. It is a small patch of rubber that is either flat or has a small nub on it. A lever lowers or raises this section to adjust how much pressure, or contact it will have with the bb. The forward moving bb hits this small patch of rubber and friction causes it to spin backwards as it travels down the barrel. Now lets think of all the things that can go wrong when this happens. For starters, having your projectile purposely strike something while traveling down the barrel is something most would want to avoid at all costs. Then again, most projectiles are not round either and this sort of contact would serve absolutely no purpose other than to destabilize it and slow it down. So with a round bb it is actually something you can kind of get away with. Sort of the same principle as using feathers on an arrow. It would seem like purposely slowing the arrow down would be counterproductive, but shoot a bare shaft arrow once, it is kind of scary. If you are lucky you might actually hit your target. If you are really lucky it won't hit at some goofy angle and break your arrow. You can tune a bow to shoot bare shafts, but it takes time and REALLY good form.


So the hop up is using friction at the top of the barrel to make the bb spin backwards as it travels down the barrel. Lets ask ourselves exactly what is going to regulate the amount of and direction of this spin. And what happens when the bb leaves the barrel. Some buckings are hard, some are soft, some smooth, some are rough, some have teeth or nubs on them. This surface can wear down or change after extended use. Temperature could effect the thickness or texture quality. How accurate is the spring holding tension on the device, and can it back off or change from shot to shot (yes it can, and does). What if the bucking is dry, wet, dirty or possibly gets oil on it. These would effect how much friction it would impart. Then we have the bb itself. We have already established that bbs are not perfectly round, balanced or have a perfectly uniform surface. If one bb is larger than another, is not perfectly round, perfectly balanced or the surface finish varies from bb to bb this is going to effect the amount of spin the hop up imparts because it will vary the amount of friction from shot to shot. Also the speed at which the bb is moving when it hits the hop up will effect it. And we have also established in most systems there is a fairly large standard of deviation in velocities from shot to shot. Faster bb, more spin, slower bb, less spin.


How accurate and centered is the hop up nub on the bb. And if the bb's are smaller than the chamber or of varying sizes what controls whether the nub is perfectly centered on the top of the bb? And since the bb is spinning and creating lift when it leaves the barrel then the barrel must be vertically centered for each shot. Meaning if you cant the barrel slightly to the left or right the bb will get pulled in that direction rather than straight up. Same thing with if the nub doesn't contact the bb on the direct top center of the bb. If it is a little off to either side it will impart some kind of odd spin to the bb. And instead of creating lift and extending the range it will instead pull the bb off to one side or the other. Or in some cases just do some crazy stuff in flight. I have seen bb's literally bounce around and zig zag in the air on their way to the target.


And this is all considering the bb doesn't make contact with an extra long outer barrel, muzzle device or suppressor on the way out. Since the bb will start lifting after it leaves the inner barrel if you have too much material after the inner barrel ends you may have contact issues that will really mess up the bb flight.


The funny thing is the part most people worry about is the most precise part and probably has the least impact on performance, the barrel. Even the cheapest of airsoft barrels are over engineered to the point of ridiculousness. When compared to the bb's the barrels are insanely well built. Sure a longer barrel might give you a bit more fps, or a little tighter grouping at 15 yards. Beyond that though they are actually the best built part in the whole system. There are HPA guns with 200mm barrels that will range out to 300 feet. With the proper bb and hop up adjustment.


And Oh My God, what is up with people dropping hundreds of dollars on high end barrels, springs, pistons, optics and triggers and then using whatever bb some chart or person suggests on the internet! Or grabs some cheap bb's from Walmart. You would probably be better off leaving your gun stock and spending the money and time to try every brand and weight of bb to see which ones actually shoot the best out of YOUR rifle. I can't tell you how much time and money I have spent trying different ammo and working up hand loads for my various rifles and handguns. There is no reason the same would not apply to airsoft. And the whole barrel to cylinder ratio thing, it is a decent guide and place to start. However by no means is it the holy grail to what will work best in YOUR situation. I experimented with my little P90 and it ended up liking a 385mm barrel with a ported cylinder and .29 bb's. The math doesn't really add up, but who cares, it shoots awesome. Do I believe math and theory, or do believe results? Kind of bums me out because it is the best shooting gun I have, but I think its butt ugly lol.


Could you make an airsoft rifle more accurate? Of course you could, just employ the same techniques and technology we use in higher powered air rifles. Deliver more volume and more accurately metered air charges (HPA/PCP). Use a softer, heavier, longer skirted pellet instead of a hard, round bb, and do away with the hop up system. Rifling the barrel might help, but honestly the barrels have such tight tolerances already it probably would not be needed unless you wanted to be accurate at longer ranges.


The problem with this is you just completely changed the role of the weapon. It would no longer be a medium range weapon with low enough power that you could safely shoot at each other with it. You would have turned it into an accurate close range target gun basically only good for punching holes in paper. It would lack the power or energy needed to harvest even the smallest game. And since you made the projectile heavier and did away with the hop up, if you wanted it shoot to 50 yards or so the energy would be high enough no one would want to get shot with it. If you shot someone at 20 yards with one it would most likely break the skin and even possibly break or shatter safety equipment like masks and goggles.


You would also have to totally re design the magazine and feeding systems. Round bbs are MUCH easier to store and load then pellets would be. You would have to design a feed ramp and it would really limit magazine capacity. I have seen a few gas guns where I think you could get away with it though.


I do see where there could be a practical use for it in sniping situations only. 5 to 10 round clips, or even single load in a bolt action spring or gas gun. I bet some sort of soft longer pellet would be twice as accurate as a bb. The only problem is you would really have to limit your engagement distances. All it would take is for one crazy kid or an aggressive adult to shoot someone at close range and it would ruin it for everyone. Or someone repeatedly aiming for bare skin with no protection.


It would be a cool project, but truthfully you could just by a pellet gun that would be cheaper and work better lol. You can get PCP rifles for as cheap as 300 dollars now.
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Old 05-01-2017, 02:57 AM   #2
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The biggest limiting factor is the bb's, really. Bb's just aren't going to fly consistent at the power level and weight that we're using, with all the inconsistency of tiny plastic pellets. It's got little to do with the guns themselves, because the guns can be pretty darn accurate. Many points you mentioned can, and are, fixed in a properly built VSR. But even if the gun is just about perfect, imperfections in the bb will still ruin accuracy.

Even with quasi-perfect bb's, accuracy is still horrible compared to a real gun, because of hopup.

And yes, hopup isn't accurate, but it does allow bb's to fly far, which is far more important. You could do away with hopup, but honestly, the guns are accurate enough at short range already so you'd gain nothing, you'd just be shot by everyone at 30 yards or more because your gun cam't shoot any further.

Airsoft guns were never meant to be accurate, they were meant to play long-range tag. You could build way more accurate guns using similar guns, but the range wouldn't be as good (nowhere near as good if you do away with hopup) and they'd no longer be suitable to shoot your buddies with. That's what we have pellet guns for.

So yes, you're right, airsoft guns are the most inaccurate devices still considered "weapons" in many countries, but that's no secret, and nor is it a problem, because they were never meant to be
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Old 05-01-2017, 03:40 AM   #3
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Yup, like I said, BB's suck. And the hop up was a genius idea to greatly extend the range. It just doesn't help with accuracy is all. I just thought this would be an interesting read for those people who are striving to get 3 inch groups at 100 yards with their airsoft sniper rifle. And since my airsoft guns are really just target guns I was kind of bouncing ideas around on how to make them the most accurate at 20 or 30 yards.

I molded up some 11 grain half inch long pellets today. Curious to see if they will be more accurate or if they will just key hole like crazy without any rifling to stabilize them. They are like .72 grams and still shoot around 380 fps out of my mbo5.

But ya, like I said all you really need is Minute of People for actual airsoft and most of the guns are capable of that.
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Old 05-01-2017, 06:48 AM   #4
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bbs are round to make them safe. There's no way around it, any other shape will cause the impact to be distributed in less surface area, which will turn them into dangerous skin penetrators.

The only option would be to keep the impact face round while changing the trail part, kinda like First Strike rounds did for paintball. But many, many people have tried and failed time after time, not sure why.


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As for the propulsion system, let me first clear (once more) that expanding gasses myth. Yes. gases gets colder as they expand, and getting colder takes the pressure down.
In poorly designed guns, like most gas BASR, that will cause FPS to drop.

But any decently designed gas gun has a floating valve inside the nozzle, to compensate the loss in pressure by allowing more volume though, which effectively provides consistent shots.
Check this chrono test on the GHK RPK, or this one on the WE P90 for some examples. The M40A5 by VFC is providing +/- 2 consistency, something I cannot even achieve in my regulated CO2 KJW M700

Sure thing, spring-powered airsoft guns are easier to get to a consistent output level, but any decent gas gun can too.

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Widebores are not more accurate in any way. The real reason Orga barrels got their fame is because they provided an extremely easy way to flat hop, which is a better option than most buckings. Also they cause extreme air leak when the hop is set to zero (like many fields would do when chronoing), so you can cheat the crhono a really dangerous level. That setup will shoot hotter as you apply hop, which is the exact opposite of what most people expect.
They are decent barrels with decent lapping, but the magic is not in the bore, imho.

Check what happens when you actually test the widebores against tightbores. Spoiler alert: higher quality barrels still gets the best results, whatever the bore.

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Over volume like crazy is not a magic trick either. It introduces far greater turbulence, which translates into less accuracy. The reason people go for it is really one of energy creep, as over-volumed builds normally will get higher Joules readings when using your heavyweights.

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The real limitation for practical accuracy is speed. Sniper shots can take even over an entire second to reach the target, which is waaaaay too much time for you target to move, your bb to catch some wind, etc.

Once again, our sport relies on that to make it safe, so there's no way around it really.

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imho that difference between shooting a stationary target vs actually playing the game is the real reason why HPA guns have that "accurate" fame. Unlike most AEGs, they don't have any delay between the press of the trigger and the actual shot, which in practical terms cuts on the time it takes for the bb to reach the target.

Also they are easy to make consistent, easy to flat hop, and easy to creep, so cannot beat that deal. And most users will hose like gangsters anyway, and you're obviously far more likely to hit the target when you shoot 50 RPS at it.

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At the end of the day, 99% of things that promises to deliver better accuracy are actually providing either more energy creep (to reach your target faster) or better trigger response (again, reach your target faster).
Which in some way greatly improves practical accuracy (the ability to hit your target), but not the actual accuracy (the one you would measure in MoA)

-------------------------


So long story short, no one is getting 3 inches groups at 100 yards. If someone makes that claim, they are simply lying or distorting the truth (as they might in perfect test conditions after several tries, but not in fields conditions at all)

The best airsoft gun I've ever seen, in the hands of a master sniper (and not mine) could hit a human-sized target at 90m every time, but no 3-inches groups at all. And that was on a static target, a really, really calm day with zero wind and perfect conditions.
But the bb fly so slow and took so much time to reach the target, we got to play Neo and got some funny bullet-time.

Most airsoft snipers won't even reach 100 yards at all.
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Old 05-01-2017, 07:48 AM   #5
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Nice text!
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Old 05-01-2017, 09:30 AM   #6
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Agreed, and agreed, and agreed some more. What also keeps airsoft safe is making it goof proof. You can't load a round BB improperly...ok, some still do, but it takes some serious talent to screw up an airsoft gun. At the end of the day, it's a game. Correct, over exaggerated tag. Who wants the hassles? Dump a bag into a hi cap and let er rip! I have an AK for just that purpose. Ok, not quite, I still tweaked the hell out of the AK...

Point is, snake oil is everywhere in the airsoft industry. As I continue my 'research' on airsoft guns, I've gotten some pretty decent results out of modifying stock components ver buying aftermarket barrels and such simply by studying the physics and making the necessary changes to the platform. I know! Super bad for the aftermarket business...

My latest boneyard masterpiece is a SCAR L salvaged from a tweaker who just about totalled it, and now it's running all stock components that have been bench altered. Even the 275mm barrel is stock G&G....just ridiculously polished and a modified hop window. The range is fantastic for an airsoft rifle and 'Moment of People' is consistently achieved.

Again, my only variable, like the rest of you have mentioned, is the ammo. It's just not solid enough...BUT, it's a game...it's fun. I get hit, I go respawn, they get hit, they go to respawn...then we have a burger together after. We must never forget, it's a game...

Now off to finish my GK5C Ultimate Weapon of Doom...mouuhhaaahaaahaa....
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Old 05-01-2017, 10:52 AM   #7
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Quote:
Over volume like crazy is not a magic trick either. It introduces far greater turbulence, which translates into less accuracy. The reason people go for it is really one of energy creep, as over-volumed builds normally will get higher Joules readings when using your heavyweights.
Not that bad actually, overvolume doesn't really influence accuracy, in my experience. One of my most accurate builds to date was very overvolumed
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Old 05-01-2017, 11:24 AM   #8
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Not that bad actually, overvolume doesn't really influence accuracy, in my experience. One of my most accurate builds to date was very overvolumed
I have found the opposite in my experience in building both HPA guns and dedicated heavyweight BASR's. Often, complaints of inaccuracy are due to high dwell settings. Bringing the dwell down (or tweaking the piston weight) to match the field weight used often results in a tightening of downrange accuracy, most realized in shots in excess of 150ft. Start stretching those shots out past the 250ft envelope and the effects of volume matching, post-barrel air handling, barrel/hop alignment and barrel quality become glaringly obvious.
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Old 05-01-2017, 01:42 PM   #9
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That wide bore vrs tight bore video is wrong right from the beginning. It is perpetuating another myth that is not true. Regardless of the barrel design the bb does not touch the barrel, bounce around in it or ride the top. This has been proven, and physics backs it up. The air cushion around the bb will automatically center it as long as the barrel is relatively straight and uniform in diameter.

Over volume does not create turbulence either because once the bb has left the barrel the air no longer effects it. I can dig up the exact physics behind it if you want me to, but I can't remember the exact theory off the top of my head.

And I still don't buy the whole high quality better barrel thing either. The difference between a 6.05 barrel and a 6.01 barrel is less than the width of a hair. When you look at the tolerances of bb's the barrels just can't make that huge of a difference. And beyond 20 yards with a hop up it really has no effect. The hop up is having far more effect on the bb then the barrel ever will.

As for the gas gun thing, I keep hearing it (mostly on this site) but I have yet to see it. I have tested a lot of gas guns lately because I keep thinking about getting another one. None of them that ran on green gas were that impressive. No better than an AEG. And in rapid fire or full auto they were outright sad. I have not shot the RPK though, nor did I shoot any gas bolt guns. I did shoot some from WE though and the ones I tried where nothing special. And in that review they do even state that your velocities will vary with temperature. With a regulated system the pressure on that side of the system will always be the same. My WE HI cappa is actually pretty consistent if you take your time shooting. Once you start rapid firing it though the velocities start to drop and the mag runs out of gas much faster. That is a 130 dollar pistol though, not a 600 dollar state of the art gas rifle. Although my 400 dollar DSR-1 green gas bolt gun is not all that consistent. I am thinking about getting a mancraft MARS system for it. I might tap a mag and hook it up to my 5 gallon 200 psi regulated air compressor first though just to see if it really makes a big difference.

As for speed and time of flight, for a moving target yes, stationary it should not matter. Unless there is wind, even the heaviest BB's don't weigh enough buck the wind. But time in flight on a stationary target should not effect over all accuracy. I have seen people make pretty decent shots out to 600 yards with muzzle loaders. And I can group arrows better than an air soft rifle at 100 yards. And that is like 200 feet per second. The bow actually falls out of my hand before the arrow hits the target.

And I am not arguing with you, you are entitled to your opinions, beliefs and own experiences. I am just explaining why I feel the way I do about it. A lot of the stuff I hear people say I either can't duplicate, can't find anyone proving it, or I can debunk it.

In the end though I am only one guy with an opinion, and it might not be the one most others have. I am by no means Lord God of the airsoft or shooting world.

And yes, it is only game. And you have to take what you can get within the design parameters. Like I said, things could be done to make them more accurate, but then they are no longer suitable for their intended purpose. I am just that idiot that always has to look at something from the target perspective. If you told special rubber bands or a certain type of wood would make a sling shot more accurate I would probably try it just to see lol.

As a side note on the over volume/under volume, barrel ratio and air turbulence thing. I think airsoft guns react a lot like fire arms and good pellet rifles do. Not one is the same and what might work well on yours might not work on someone elses. They sort of have their own individuality in that regard. Same with ammo, you might find the right brand or weight of BB that just "works" in your particular set up. If I were to re barrel a 10/22 ruger I would not be able to say if it was more or less accurate without trying every brand of ammo I could get my hands on. I could only tell you if it was more or less accurate with that brand of ammo compared to the way it was before. I do have things that generally work better than others though. Like most of my .22's seem to like winchester hollow points. And most run like crap on remington bulk ammo. For others it might be the opposite.

I have noticed that like in paintball and archery a lot of the hype around certain things is sometimes motivated by money. Either a person is given a particular product, is sponsored by them, or they sell something. If I was in the business of selling upgrade parts I would certainly want you to believe a PDI barrel is better than a 30 dollar Mad Bull barrel, simply because I would make more money on the expensive barrel. Until someone goes out and buys every barrel, then tests it in the same gun with the same hop up with several types and weights of bbs and fine tunes the hop up for each set up there is simply no way to say one is better than the other. You can't just swap out a barrel for another one, run 20 or 30 rounds through it at 20 yards and say if it is better or worse than then the other one. Do you realize how many variables you changed just by changing that barrel. Even if you took the barrel out and put the same one back in you changed a lot of other things that could effect it.

It really just boils down to playing and having fun and discussing what works best for you.
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Old 05-01-2017, 02:20 PM   #10
Reliku   Reliku is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corriander View Post
I have found the opposite in my experience in building both HPA guns and dedicated heavyweight BASR's. Often, complaints of inaccuracy are due to high dwell settings. Bringing the dwell down (or tweaking the piston weight) to match the field weight used often results in a tightening of downrange accuracy, most realized in shots in excess of 150ft. Start stretching those shots out past the 250ft envelope and the effects of volume matching, post-barrel air handling, barrel/hop alignment and barrel quality become glaringly obvious.
Interesting. In my experience it has made little difference, except when undervoluming (which does hurt accuracy).

Then again, I haven't done much shooting past 250' with those overvolumed guns (yet).
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Old 05-01-2017, 02:33 PM   #11
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulmohr View Post
That wide bore vrs tight bore video is wrong right from the beginning. It is perpetuating another myth that is not true. Regardless of the barrel design the bb does not touch the barrel, bounce around in it or ride the top. This has been proven, and physics backs it up. The air cushion around the bb will automatically center it as long as the barrel is relatively straight and uniform in diameter.
.... Time to put your money where your mouth is.

Mark up the inside of a barrel with Dykem, put a few rounds threw it, and post up what your inner barrel looks like after.
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Last edited by Plazmaburn; 05-01-2017 at 02:39 PM.
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Old 05-01-2017, 02:52 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulmohr View Post
Over volume does not create turbulence either because once the bb has left the barrel the air no longer effects it.
high pressure air leaks between the barrel and the bb, and is actually in front of the bb when it exits the barel. The wider bore, the higher turbulence in front of the bb, which takes it slightly out of course.

That's the whole reason barrels have crowning, and some even have weird versions of it (that actually works wonders, like Maple Leaf Crazy Jet barrels)


Quote:
Originally Posted by paulmohr View Post
And I still don't buy the whole high quality better barrel thing either. The difference between a 6.05 barrel and a 6.01 barrel is less than the width of a hair.
Barrel quality stands for bore consistency and cocentricity. I agree 100% that 0.02mm diameter difference won't affect anything, but the slightest bent in the barrel will.
That's what makes for higher quality barrels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulmohr View Post
None of them that ran on green gas were that impressive. No better than an AEG.
And I never said they are more consistent that AEGs, I have to be crazy to make such claim. My point was that they are not so inconsistent as most people think.
Many believe a gas gun will get each shot lower and lower, and that's simply not true. The whole purpose of the floating valve is to prevent that.

In fact I get better practical accuracy with gas guns than AEGs, but solely on the energy creep and instant trigger response.

As for the full auto thing, they definitely get the pressure down so much that the FPS goes down as well. Still I've seen many gas guns perform decently even in FA, but anyway this is a sniper forum, isn't it? Thought we were talking semi auto guns at most, not full auto hosers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by paulmohr View Post
As for speed and time of flight, for a moving target yes, stationary it should not matter. Unless there is wind, even the heaviest BB's don't weigh enough buck the wind.
This is not a stationary targets game. At all.

I've went so far as using .12g for CQB just because of the extra 100 FPS it provides in the pistols compared to .20s, which believe it or not made a great difference when trying to shoot peekers and runners.

As for open fields, zero wind is a rare occurrence, at least in my area. So as I said, you simply cannot expect 3MoA at 100yards on game conditions. It's not realistic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulmohr View Post
I am by no means Lord God of the airsoft or shooting world.
Neither am I, or anyone else. These are all opinions, and no one has the last word about it. That's the beauty of forums, sharing experiences and opinions. We shouldn't even have to clarify it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reliku View Post
Overvolume doesn't really influence accuracy, in my experience. One of my most accurate builds to date was very overvolumed
May or may not. Barrel crowning and other factors, like if your inner evacuates directly to the atmosphere or falls short in the inner, might affect how the extra pressure in front of the bb works.

But anyway, is your overvolumed build the most accurate, still when adjusted by Joules output and not the "FPS w/.20s" thing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plazmaburn View Post
Mark up the inside of a barrel with Dykem, put a few rounds threw it, and post up what your inner barrel looks like after.
Well, I agree with Paul 100% there. The math is solid, bernoulli's effect centering the bb in the barrel is magnitudes of force greater than the magnus effect provided by the hop up.

Last edited by Dimitri MdP; 05-01-2017 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 05-01-2017, 03:18 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reliku View Post
Interesting. In my experience it has made little difference, except when undervoluming (which does hurt accuracy).

Then again, I haven't done much shooting past 250' with those overvolumed guns (yet).
Maybe when you over volumed your rifle, it actually was not over volumed.
I do a lot of experiments and spend hours just doing experiments as you have most likely noticed. Especially experiments on cylinder volumes. I found that with an SR25 (with the V2.5 gearbox), and using a 0.3gm bb that I was able to get the most energy out of a barrel that was only 215mm long. Most people would say this is massively over volumed. But it was not. It was the perfect cylinder to barrel to bb weight ratio for the V2.5 cylinder.
Most people think that AEG's need a length barrel of 300mm upwards. So when you use a shorter barrel they think it is over volumed. But it is not.

In saying this, I do not know if over voluming effects accuracy. I try to not over volume as it is a waste of potential energy.
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Old 05-01-2017, 03:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plazmaburn View Post
Dykem, put a few rounds threw it, and post up what your inner barrel looks like after.
Maybe someone could do this the cheap way.
Use a vacuum cleaner and put it in reverse. So it blows. Get a clear 2m tube and attach it to the end. Put a ping pong ball down it. Turn it on and video the results with high frames per second. We may then be able to see if it travels along the top, centre or bottom. Although, this is without backspin.
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Old 05-01-2017, 03:56 PM   #15
 
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Then you have nothing to loose by doing the test, other then burning some time. If the math is 100% right, the test will prove it.

I want to see PHYSICAL PROOF THAT IS REPEATABLE, that backs up the math. I have yet to see any. If you have a better test that will prove the math, I am all ears.
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