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Old 09-18-2018, 02:11 PM   #1
Coyote9   Coyote9 is offline
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My Argument Against Scopes (Discussion Welcome)

I use a JG Bar10 with an M100 spring. With my hopup increased by maple leaf, I have a maximum range of ~250ft. Even at this range, I do not think a scope is valid.



During my time in the military I would regularly take shots up to 350m with only the stock iron sights on my rifle. I found this case to be very similar with others. Iron sights were preferred due to the easy of scanning and finding targets, and that nothing could so much as break. Also in dawn/dusk or high heat or high cold, the iron was not effected. Scopes of poor quality can fog in extreme temperatures. Also in high light times they tend to gather more light than they can use, washed out picture.
Most importantly scope vision is very narrow and limiting. Also nearly useless at night.


As airsoft is so close, accuracy is primarily the result of the mechanical, not the shooter if the shooter has basic skills. Airsoft bbs can also break scopes, metal not so easily.



As a result, I have welded an old 1903 sight hood onto the rear part of the cylinder assembly. This with the stock foresight creates a good aperture sight to shoot from.



Keeping things in line is natural, and the metal thinness combined with the proximity to the eye means a very open view, a ghost ring and post. This limits the ability to be flanked, and good for general perception for reconnaissance.



I offer this as a differing opinion, what do all of you think?





Sorry ESL.
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Old 09-18-2018, 02:50 PM   #2
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i can and have used mine with the iron sights. I agree on some of this. But where the scope helps is spotting the leaf suit guys that aren't moving. You may not need this help but my eyes aren't the best. and also tracking the bb in the air. again with better eyes this may not be needed.
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Old 09-18-2018, 03:15 PM   #3
1tonne   1tonne is offline
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Aim small hit small.


If you have a rifle that shoots around 350fps, then your range is really around 55-60 meters. You may be able to get 75 meters by aiming high.
So at 55-60 meters you don't really need a magnification scope.
With higher powered rifles that shoot up to 90 meters, I use 3 magnification as it can make it easier to hit small. You can also estimate how far off the target your bb was by using the mildots and then counteract this in the next shot.
Though, I guess if you practise without a scope at extra long ranges, you may get good at it. It would be nice to not to have the extra weight.
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Old 09-18-2018, 03:26 PM   #4
 
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I have done that. I can track bbs well enough, I still prefer the scope though. Helps with figuring out if I am hitting brush or not. I also have been having to shoot non-white bbs, which the scope absolutely helps with.

I also use it for recon at larger games.
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Old 09-18-2018, 03:40 PM   #5
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I use a scope on my VSR upgraded, I can hit a tin square 8 inches by 14 inches at a measured 255ft sometimes 4 shots in a row, however without the scope I can see it’s rough shape but my eyesight does not work that well so a scope, for me, is a necessary item otherwise I would not see half the targets I see with scope. I used to shoot my airifle with no sights or scope but practiced using the barrel as a pointer but that was a long time ago
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Old 09-18-2018, 03:59 PM   #6
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Of course using a scope is all about looks in airsoft ranges since you are having "a sniper".

I use my scope to zoom up in bushes and stuff like that when I am not sure if I am seeing someone or they are barely moving. Also it is just more fun to use and helps in certain situations.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:03 PM   #7
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At the very least, your points should put it into perspective for many why they should be using lower-magnification than they often do.

Personally I still like using a [low-magnification] scope for a few reasons:
- "aim small miss small"
- To spot enemies in dense foliage
- I like to choose where on the enemy I hit them- I'd rather avoid the face, but I'd also rather avoid zero-sensitivity bulk such as vest pouches
- I can see the BB's path in finer resolution, which is very pertinent in my lush environment where there's a million things for the BB to run into on the way to its target
- It's just a lot more fun to watch up-close as my BB travels from my rifle to the enemy- and seeing their reaction...
And any down-side for me I think is negligible.
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Old 09-18-2018, 05:15 PM   #8
Jeppe   Jeppe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyote9 View Post
I use a JG Bar10 with an M100 spring. With my hopup increased by maple leaf, I have a maximum range of ~250ft. Even at this range, I do not think a scope is valid.



During my time in the military I would regularly take shots up to 350m with only the stock iron sights on my rifle. I found this case to be very similar with others. Iron sights were preferred due to the easy of scanning and finding targets, and that nothing could so much as break. Also in dawn/dusk or high heat or high cold, the iron was not effected. Scopes of poor quality can fog in extreme temperatures. Also in high light times they tend to gather more light than they can use, washed out picture.
Most importantly scope vision is very narrow and limiting. Also nearly useless at night.


As airsoft is so close, accuracy is primarily the result of the mechanical, not the shooter if the shooter has basic skills. Airsoft bbs can also break scopes, metal not so easily.



As a result, I have welded an old 1903 sight hood onto the rear part of the cylinder assembly. This with the stock foresight creates a good aperture sight to shoot from.



Keeping things in line is natural, and the metal thinness combined with the proximity to the eye means a very open view, a ghost ring and post. This limits the ability to be flanked, and good for general perception for reconnaissance.



I offer this as a differing opinion, what do all of you think?





Sorry ESL.

Hey. Ex-mil here as well.

I can (could) shoot torso at 500m fairly well with iron sights.
We all get issued scope (elcan C79) or dot sight anyway.
I definately shoot better with optics, no matter the distance.

I would still use optics/dot on a real rifle, and i would still use optics/dot on airsoft rifle for a ton of reasons (other people already list them).
Iron sights are useless at night as well and they can pick up dirt that blocks vision or shifts your "known sight picture".
NV clip-on for scope is an option. Not really so with iron sights.
Tunnel vision issues are a matter of training. Don't idle through the scope. But on the other hand, you are sniping, not fighting a two-way fight.


I think iron suits only has a merit as backup sights or for non-use rifles. No point spending 1000usd on optic for a 300usd rifle that will sit in a safe or be carried more for show.
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Old 09-19-2018, 05:01 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1tonne View Post
Aim small hit small.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMarker View Post
"aim small miss small"
Could you please explain this term? I'm not fully sure what is being meant by that, as English isn't my native language

Thanks ;)
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Old 09-19-2018, 05:18 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onyx-SF View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1tonne View Post
Aim small hit small.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMarker View Post
"aim small miss small"
Could you please explain this term? I'm not fully sure what is being meant by that, as English isn't my native language [IMG class=inlineimg]https://www.airsoftsniperforum.com/images/smilies/wacko.gif[/IMG]

Thanks ;)
“Aim Small, Miss Small” is basically just saying that if you aim for a smaller part of the body, say the center “kill circle” in the chest, a one or two inch miss can still hit the target as a whole, where as if you aim for the entire torso and you missed your target by that inch or two, you just missed your shot.

I am also military, trained for shooting a human sized target with iron sights at five hundred yards. But I can not say that using a 4x Acog does not help with accuracy. Is it really needed? No. Does it help? With proper training it can be the difference between 14/15 on target hits to a perfect score every time.

Granted that is a real weapon, and at 500 yards, the front sight post on your rifle is larger than a human torso. But the same concept still applies in Airsoft. Even at closer distances, you can lose a lot of details, and it can be hard to sometimes judge your shots. Did you hit them? Or did you hit the log they are hiding behind? Is that even a person? A scope, if utilized properly, can be an effective tool, even at such close ranges. Granted anything over 6x or so is kind of over kill.
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Old 09-19-2018, 05:58 AM   #11
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Scopes on an HIGH power BASR are also a safety thing

With a MED of 100' fine detail and target identificaton are important. If someone takes off their eyepro for example you may not notice if you're look through open sites. With a scope you will likely notice this, and if you're doing it right, you are also trying not to hit the guy in an area that could really hurt them. Some of our rifles are hitting 600 fps and 3.6 Joule. Thats a lot of power and we are more likely to hurt someone than the 400fps AEG unless we are very careful with our aim.

That ties into another fact, our rifles arn't rifles. They are smooth bore air guns shooting a round ball which makes them less accurate and that glass really helps tracking those rounds downrange . I would say that for high power builds going for the long shots and 4x scope is both safer and more accurate than open sights with these guns. If you're shooting 350fps, then meh, open sights would work well.

For those of you who want to shoot with open sights but have vision issues , dig up some ring peep sites, those things are like magic. I used to use them when I shot competitive small bore rifle ( .22). Its like looking through a very low / no power optic . It's hard to explain , you'd have to see it. But the bb tracking problem is still there. Like I said, were not as accurate as real steel , yeah , theres that.

Red dots sights are a cool thing on a VSR also depending on your setup. Great for night games with NVGs

Finally , there is the "You KNOW you hit" your target thing even if he don't call it. Scopes don't lie
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Old 09-19-2018, 07:25 AM   #12
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Bb tracking, that's all the reason really. I've got 120% vision and I can not track a bb accurately enough to determine whether I hit a bush at 80 meters. Bb's have hopup trajectories and wind which you need to take into account, without a scope it's guesswork because you can't accurately track the bb. With scope you know where the bb's go, you can adjust your aim accurately. No guesswork => you hit your target.

With a real rifle anyone could do with iron sights at 100 m. But airsoft rifles already have the spread the size of a human chest at that range. You need to take that into account.
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Old 09-19-2018, 09:20 AM   #13
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I'm not military, but as a hunter, I never use scopes. If I can't get closer than a hundred yards to what I'm shooting, I suck! hahahaha... In the foothills here, you can't afford to get tunnel vision. You need your peripheral vision as it could save your life. Often when hunting, there's something with big teeth out there who's also hunting and often the same animal you are. It's a safety thing to be able to see as wide as possible in case there's a bear or a cat close by. During hunting season the forest is pure mayhem with the rut going full blast and everything trying to get fat before winter. You need to stay sharp and be very vigilant. Target shooting? Not so much.

That said, I find that people are WAY easier to hit than animals! hahahaha. They make alot more noise and don't blend into the environment as well. A cougar can stand ten feet from you and you may never notice, but not so much for people. That said, my primary love for scopes in airsoft is for tracking the BB, like the guys said. It makes it far easier to watch the trajectory and is magic for making adjustments as such. I go for as wide a field a view as possible. 3X by 40mm objective is lots. It gives you a nice wide angle at distances greater than 75 yards and you can still sharply see the protruding elbow sticking out from behind the tree. If the game is fast and tight, I'll use a red dot but regardless which optic I put on the gun, I always use a lens protector of some sort. I have flash hiders on my sniper and CQB gun, and use a plexi protector on the DMR's. Cheap insurance.. Also, no need to spend big bucks on your airsoft optics...there's absolutely no advantage...a 40 dollar 3-9x40 off of eBay will work just fine and if something happens to it, no big loss. Same goes for the red dots. I buy them through surplus for 20 bucks.
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Old 09-24-2018, 09:34 AM   #14
Coyote9   Coyote9 is offline
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Bb tracking, that's all the reason really. I've got 120% vision and I can not track a bb accurately enough to determine whether I hit a bush at 80 meters. Bb's have hopup trajectories and wind which you need to take into account, without a scope it's guesswork because you can't accurately track the bb. With scope you know where the bb's go, you can adjust your aim accurately. No guesswork => you hit your target..

I think this is a very excellent point. I hadn't considered it. But after reading this, it is making me reconsider my statement. Thank you for your opinion.
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