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Old 06-21-2019, 09:19 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john3302 View Post
Just a bit off topic.
I know using heavier bb's like .40 increases your accuracy but does it increase your range also? Do the heavier bb's decrease in speed making it easier for your opponent to see them? I assume there is a sweet spot for bb's between .32 - .42. Trial and error?

What size bb would you recommend on a fully upgraded JG Bar using a 140-150 spring [480 fps] with a AA hop up and AA 6.01 inner barrel?

Accurate, I know you will tell me to search the posts, [smile] but the more input the better since their are so many conflicting opinions. Someone should write a book, "The Search For Truth In Airsoft". [smile]

Thanks for all your help and input Accurate, I appreciate you helping me accelerate my learning curve.
Depends on your barrel length. On that system for instance, with a 430mm barrel, .43g would be the best choice. Shorter barrel? Heavier bb. Longer barrel? Lighter bb. See the link below:

https://www.airsoftsniperforum.com/3...explained.html

Heavier bbs typically leave the barrel slower but they will maintain more energy and speed for a further distance. As long as your hop up can hop the bb, then a heavier bb will travel more accurately for a further distance. Yes, there is a point where the bbs become too heavy and you lose range but as long as you don't go above .5g you will likely be fine depending on barrel length.
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Old 06-21-2019, 10:14 AM   #47
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To exaggerate the concept of projectile weight, let's compare a .45-70 to a .177 varmint round. The .177 bullet flies 3 times faster than the .45-70, but the bullet weight of the .45-70 is about 4-500 grains whereas the .177 HMR is about 17 grains. At a few hundred yards, the .45-70 will easily dispatch a bison whereas the .177 will get swatted off of its posterior like a horsefly bite (albeit, shooting a gopher with .45-70 at 50 yards is completely useless, but entertaining nonetheless). A heavier projectile is slower but carries alot more of the inertia that was required to get it to launch in the first place.

Airsoft BB's are much the same. At distances of over a couple of hundred feet, the heavier the BB (although flying slower), the more impact it will deliver.

Now, about the new best seller 'The Search for Truth in Airsoft', it's not so much about truth as it is about standardization. There are SO many variables in this game from ammo to hop materials, to, to, to, to....well, you get it. Sure there's some solid hyperbole in action, but then how big was that fish, really? I don't experiment to ostracize the ridiculous as much as just to quantify to myself whether something was plausible, or not. You can take that knowledge onto the field and position yourself accordingly knowing that yes, that opponent's rifle can do this, or no, I'll back up another 20 feet and I'm good. No matter what they claim.

When I step onto the field, I have my eye on the chrono before the game. You can tell by the rifle platform, how the gearbox sounds, the speed of the chrono, and where the resulting shot went when it left the chrono whether this individual is a potential hazard or not. Before even firing a shot it's good to watch a few shots from the opponent's gun to see if they're hooking left or right, where the drop is...all from a safe distance. Then you can decide how to engage them and exploit the weak areas. That's how you win a fight...:)
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Old 06-21-2019, 11:03 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Zero Roaster View Post
To exaggerate the concept of projectile weight, let's compare a .45-70 to a .177 varmint round. The .177 bullet flies 3 times faster than the .45-70, but the bullet weight of the .45-70 is about 4-500 grains whereas the .177 HMR is about 17 grains. At a few hundred yards, the .45-70 will easily dispatch a bison whereas the .177 will get swatted off of its posterior like a horsefly bite (albeit, shooting a gopher with .45-70 at 50 yards is completely useless, but entertaining nonetheless). A heavier projectile is slower but carries alot more of the inertia that was required to get it to launch in the first place.
Now take both bullets apart and swap powder with each other :)
Tisk tisk tisk mr. zero, comparing real guns to airsoft.
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Old 06-21-2019, 11:17 AM   #49
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No sir! You missed the point...it was an illustrated example to show how projectile weight and inertia work together. Plain and simple. hahahahaha. Relax, man...hahahaha
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:08 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by AccurateDMD View Post
Oh I get what you're saying. My point is that if all of THAT isn't aligned with the hop up axis then its relatively pointless.
[...]
That still makes the assumption my receiver and hop up are level with each other, which I took a lot of time to make sure of.
Right, but aligning the scope/level with your hop-up axis was step #2- ensuring the over-hopped BB tracks perfectly along your vertical crosshair :)
Yeah, that last concern in your post is why, TECHNICALLY for most people not directly ensuring receiver/chamber alignment, a scope-tube fitting is the only one that can be guaranteed to be adjusted to be perfect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by john3302 View Post
Magic Marker you seemed to know your stuff.
Here is a hypothetical question.

A billionaire calls you up and tells you to build him the ultimate airsoft sniper rifle. Cost in not a factor, you can spend as much as you want, but its has to use legal airsoft bb's, be under 550 fps, and have a consistent effective range of 300 to 330 feet.
Is it possible giving the scientific limitations of a bb?
Well, as established, this conversation is convoluted as hell- however I think most would agree 'yes', solely with holdover.
Aside from obvious holdover, you could over-hop a bit, and then maybe you'll even find yourself with some tail wind that really sends them - so the range you can launch a BB can be pretty immense - however the consistency cannot be improved, and at some point even if you manage to consistently send BBs 200m, they're not going to consistently hit a man-sized target.
Basically the question you were initially zeroing in on, and the one whose answer would be the key reference when attempting to build the best possible airsoft sniper rifle, is: "What is the accuracy potential of airsoft ammunition in MILRAD?" and uh...idk man :P
Using 300ft and a diameter of the width of an average adult male's shoulders, the answer is 4.4 MILS. But I mean...I'm sure it's not a constant either, for many reasons :P
I think you're worried too much about an arbitrary singular focus point though. I built my current primary rifle to completion without ever testing accuracy- then I went and booped 106m (~double-torso-sized, probably no more than 50% hits, suppressor interfering; not meant to be a formal claim). I used known-high-quality parts, used a chronograph to ensure my power output was consistent, made certain every single part from inner barrel to scope was reasonably rigid, and voila- load known-high-quality BBs and what could go wrong? I mean I'll admit this wasn't my first build- but the point is you want to focus on the right things, and you don't actually need to test at range and say "Hm I'm only getting x accuracy when I want y." to do that [up to like the 99th percentile of performance]. Is there any play between the chamber and inner barrel? Does the inner barrel wobble within the outer barrel? Is the outer barrel tight enough to the chamber to hold the rifle horizontally by the muzzle? You can see what needs to be improved in a majority of cases before ever ranging- these things alone bring a build above 99% of the population because most people just slap parts into a rifle like Lego, and they are what must be verified first before you try any A/B comparison between barrels, buckings, etc. etc.
Like mentioned, there's no secret sauce :P
And after all, the best shots aren't always super far anyway- one of my best shots was just 75m at a little bit of elbow sticking out behind a tree :D

Quote:
Originally Posted by john3302 View Post
Just a bit off topic.
I know using heavier bb's like .40 increases your accuracy but does it increase your range also? Do the heavier bb's decrease in speed making it easier for your opponent to see them? I assume there is a sweet spot for bb's between .32 - .42. Trial and error?

What size bb would you recommend on a fully upgraded JG Bar using a 140-150 spring [480 fps] with a AA hop up and AA 6.01 inner barrel?
Heavier BBs is the primary way to increase range. It's not guaranteed that tossing heavier BBs in any old system will increase your range, but generally speaking, across the whole spectrum, it tends to be more true than false, as others mentioned.
On a graph of BB speed (y) over time (x), with equal muzzle energy, a lighter BB will have a more diagonal line (higher starting speed, slowing down faster), whereas a heavier BB will be more of a straight line (lower starting speed, but doesn't slow down as fast).* The notion of being able to see the BB coming is a bit nuanced- a large reason you do tend to see sniper rounds coming at you easier [assuming you're looking!] is simply the longer distance you have to pick up the BB coming- over x distance, it's intuitive it would take longer for the BB to reach you when it's heavier, because a lighter BB might NEVER even go that far due to physics, right? So it feels like this BB you're seeing is taking longer- but only because you rarely get shot out that far. But the thing is, that's not actually to say that heavier BBs get there slower- because they don't. Heavier BBs actually reach a given distance FASTER than lighter BBs in most cases (not true when very very close to the muzzle) [if I recall a study correctly]. So while it does SEEM they're arriving slower, in most cases, they are arriving faster.
On that last example question, better have someone else chime in- the only time I owned a spring rifle was a day or so before I gutted it to put in my Wolverine Bolt :P

*A tangential appendix:
In a magical system outputting exactly x energy, a lighter BB will have a higher speed, and a heavier BB a lower speed. In practice though, you will see different weight BBs leave the system with different energies. This is because a system has an optimal BB weight which will gain the most power from the system of any other BB weight. Usually (essentially always with gas builds, due to high output air volume), heavier BBs tend to use the potential energy offered by the system more efficiently than lighter BBs. Imagine a huge volume of air under high pressure pushing BBs out of the system; a lighter BB accelerates faster, leaving the system in a shorter period of time, gaining less energy from the system than a heavier BB which remains under high pressure for longer. The real world result of seeing a .2g BB leave the muzzle at 2J, then seeing a .4g BB leave the same exact system at 2.5J is referred to as joule creep. Technically, joule creep can move in either direction, but you will almost never hear it used to describe energy loss with heavier BBs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Roaster View Post
No sir! You missed the point...it was an illustrated example to show how projectile weight and inertia work together. Plain and simple. hahahahaha. Relax, man...hahahaha
No excuses! One dollar to the "I compared airsoft to firearms" jar!
Nah your analogy was useful I know :P
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Old 06-21-2019, 02:18 PM   #51
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If I may, there was no direct comparison of real steel to airsoft here...it was using extreme quantities to illustrate the point of inertia that was perhaps not well defined enough simply using BB's of different weights. I did not directly correlate nor compare the airsoft projectile to the real steel (nor its effects), it was strictly a comparison of quantity.

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Old 06-21-2019, 03:19 PM   #52
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I’m watching you mister
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Old 06-21-2019, 03:21 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john3302 View Post
Just a bit off topic.
I know using heavier bb's like .40 increases your accuracy but does it increase your range also? Do the heavier bb's decrease in speed making it easier for your opponent to see them? I assume there is a sweet spot for bb's between .32 - .42. Trial and error?

What size bb would you recommend on a fully upgraded JG Bar using a 140-150 spring [480 fps] with a AA hop up and AA 6.01 inner barrel?
This is a good guideline to help choose the right bb if you have a rifle that is setup to be efficient:
330-370fps = 0.25gm-0.30gm
370-420fps = 0.30gm-0.32gm
420-450fps = 0.32gm-0.36gm
450-500fps = 0.36gm-0.40gm
500-540fps = 0.40gm-0.45gm
540fps upwards = 0.48gm+


This is just a guideline as you can go a little heavier (but not much) but too much more and then you will lose range.
There is such a thing as an inefficient setup that can take heavier bb's but most people like an efficient rifle (Correct cylinder to barrel ratio and light piston)
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Old 06-21-2019, 10:46 PM   #54
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Hey 1tonne, thanks for getting us back on track here. :)
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Old 06-22-2019, 07:56 AM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1tonne View Post
This is a good guideline to help choose the right bb if you have a rifle that is setup to be efficient:
330-370fps = 0.25gm-0.30gm
370-420fps = 0.30gm-0.32gm
420-450fps = 0.32gm-0.36gm
450-500fps = 0.36gm-0.40gm
500-540fps = 0.40gm-0.45gm
540fps upwards = 0.48gm+


This is just a guideline as you can go a little heavier (but not much) but too much more and then you will lose range.
There is such a thing as an inefficient setup that can take heavier bb's but most people like an efficient rifle (Correct cylinder to barrel ratio and light piston)
The rifle would be a Bar 10 with all AA upgrades with the exception of a Maple Leaf bucking and a PDI inner barrel. Chrono at approximately 480 fps.
I was thinking .36 to .40
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Old 06-22-2019, 08:21 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMarker View Post
Right, but aligning the scope/level with your hop-up axis was step #2- ensuring the over-hopped BB tracks perfectly along your vertical crosshair :)
Yeah, that last concern in your post is why, TECHNICALLY for most people not directly ensuring receiver/chamber alignment, a scope-tube fitting is the only one that can be guaranteed to be adjusted to be perfect.


Well, as established, this conversation is convoluted as hell- however I think most would agree 'yes', solely with holdover.
Aside from obvious holdover, you could over-hop a bit, and then maybe you'll even find yourself with some tail wind that really sends them - so the range you can launch a BB can be pretty immense - however the consistency cannot be improved, and at some point even if you manage to consistently send BBs 200m, they're not going to consistently hit a man-sized target.
Basically the question you were initially zeroing in on, and the one whose answer would be the key reference when attempting to build the best possible airsoft sniper rifle, is: "What is the accuracy potential of airsoft ammunition in MILRAD?" and uh...idk man :P
Using 300ft and a diameter of the width of an average adult male's shoulders, the answer is 4.4 MILS. But I mean...I'm sure it's not a constant either, for many reasons :P
I think you're worried too much about an arbitrary singular focus point though. I built my current primary rifle to completion without ever testing accuracy- then I went and booped 106m (~double-torso-sized, probably no more than 50% hits, suppressor interfering; not meant to be a formal claim). I used known-high-quality parts, used a chronograph to ensure my power output was consistent, made certain every single part from inner barrel to scope was reasonably rigid, and voila- load known-high-quality BBs and what could go wrong? I mean I'll admit this wasn't my first build- but the point is you want to focus on the right things, and you don't actually need to test at range and say "Hm I'm only getting x accuracy when I want y." to do that [up to like the 99th percentile of performance]. Is there any play between the chamber and inner barrel? Does the inner barrel wobble within the outer barrel? Is the outer barrel tight enough to the chamber to hold the rifle horizontally by the muzzle? You can see what needs to be improved in a majority of cases before ever ranging- these things alone bring a build above 99% of the population because most people just slap parts into a rifle like Lego, and they are what must be verified first before you try any A/B comparison between barrels, buckings, etc. etc.
Like mentioned, there's no secret sauce :P
And after all, the best shots aren't always super far anyway- one of my best shots was just 75m at a little bit of elbow sticking out behind a tree :D


Heavier BBs is the primary way to increase range. It's not guaranteed that tossing heavier BBs in any old system will increase your range, but generally speaking, across the whole spectrum, it tends to be more true than false, as others mentioned.
On a graph of BB speed (y) over time (x), with equal muzzle energy, a lighter BB will have a more diagonal line (higher starting speed, slowing down faster), whereas a heavier BB will be more of a straight line (lower starting speed, but doesn't slow down as fast).* The notion of being able to see the BB coming is a bit nuanced- a large reason you do tend to see sniper rounds coming at you easier [assuming you're looking!] is simply the longer distance you have to pick up the BB coming- over x distance, it's intuitive it would take longer for the BB to reach you when it's heavier, because a lighter BB might NEVER even go that far due to physics, right? So it feels like this BB you're seeing is taking longer- but only because you rarely get shot out that far. But the thing is, that's not actually to say that heavier BBs get there slower- because they don't. Heavier BBs actually reach a given distance FASTER than lighter BBs in most cases (not true when very very close to the muzzle) [if I recall a study correctly]. So while it does SEEM they're arriving slower, in most cases, they are arriving faster.
On that last example question, better have someone else chime in- the only time I owned a spring rifle was a day or so before I gutted it to put in my Wolverine Bolt :P

*A tangential appendix:
In a magical system outputting exactly x energy, a lighter BB will have a higher speed, and a heavier BB a lower speed. In practice though, you will see different weight BBs leave the system with different energies. This is because a system has an optimal BB weight which will gain the most power from the system of any other BB weight. Usually (essentially always with gas builds, due to high output air volume), heavier BBs tend to use the potential energy offered by the system more efficiently than lighter BBs. Imagine a huge volume of air under high pressure pushing BBs out of the system; a lighter BB accelerates faster, leaving the system in a shorter period of time, gaining less energy from the system than a heavier BB which remains under high pressure for longer. The real world result of seeing a .2g BB leave the muzzle at 2J, then seeing a .4g BB leave the same exact system at 2.5J is referred to as joule creep. Technically, joule creep can move in either direction, but you will almost never hear it used to describe energy loss with heavier BBs.


No excuses! One dollar to the "I compared airsoft to firearms" jar!
Nah your analogy was useful I know :P
You mentioned there would be too many variables even with a unlimited budget, but the point is to remove as many variables as possible such as human error and weather.

What separates opinion from fact? What is the absolute complete potential of your gun and how can you achieve that? Maybe this question cannot be answered. All you can do is research, test, try to separate some facts from fiction and form your own opinions over time based on the knowledge you have accumulated. Hopefully, you can meet a few wise airsofters along the way who can accelerate this process.

Back to your billionaire project. I do get your point. You hand the billionaire his new expensive, "one airsoft sniper rifle to rule all sniper rifles" and tell him you met his criteria in your controlled environment, but once he enters the real world his ultimate sniper rifle has lost much of its power. Because we all know all hell can break loose quickly in a airsoft battle.
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Old 06-22-2019, 08:23 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by AccurateDMD View Post
Depends on your barrel length. On that system for instance, with a 430mm barrel, .43g would be the best choice. Shorter barrel? Heavier bb. Longer barrel? Lighter bb. See the link below:

https://www.airsoftsniperforum.com/3...explained.html

Heavier bbs typically leave the barrel slower but they will maintain more energy and speed for a further distance. As long as your hop up can hop the bb, then a heavier bb will travel more accurately for a further distance. Yes, there is a point where the bbs become too heavy and you lose range but as long as you don't go above .5g you will likely be fine depending on barrel length.
Yes, I would be using a VSR-10 standard 430mm barrel with a AA hop up.
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Old 06-22-2019, 08:40 AM   #58
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It's good to know what's the average performance around here, nice read.
I have done a test with 0,43 bbs, polished by me, on a LayLax barrel G-spec with custom HPA system. The gun wasn't very hot, doing low-mid 300 FPS with 0,43. I did groups of 10 shots at a A3 paper at 90m. While I had to aim higher and compensate the wind, it was consistent enough to hit the paper repeatedly. However, I had a spotter to give me where the shots were hitting, without him I'd take far more shots to get onto the target. With the 4x scope I was using plus the compensation needed, part of the target was already out of my sight so without a spotter I doubt it could be considered effective. Also 90m is hella far, without telescopic sights I have difficulties at spotting targets within some vegetation.
So in a way, Zeros idea of effective range is where 100% hit is logic, I'd prefer a pinpoint 50m range gun than one that hits more or less at 100.
I own a VSR, so does two of my friends. Mine is custom to the bone, while theirs are store bought upgraded. One more upgraded than the other. But both can out range AEGs. However AEGs will rain down on you. Even at 100m. So once you're found, unless the AEG is truely trash, you have very little time to sore one hit before being hit. I don't really believe BASR can really safely out range a AEG. Sniping is about being quiet, hidden and patience.
Sniping isn't massive kill counts. Truth be told the guy in my team that gets most kills runs around with a pistol, while I score few hits. However my hits are far more satisfactory.
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Old 06-22-2019, 08:45 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Handyguy View Post
Of course there is the thing with, hand tremble, dodgy eyes ( I fitted a scope level but discovered that my older (61) eyes cannot focus that close) breathing, distractions in game. I can hit a 8 x 14 tin plate at 250ft measured, sometimes 3 times in a row, thatís with the bar10 resting on a table but I find often if I do hit someone at that range or sometimes closer, further but as they cannot see me they donít call it. I am ď fixing ď a SSG and a JG bar 10 which is fitted the nov upgrade kit, the owner said shots are always hooks right even after lots of fettling. So I took them home and tested them, they both shoot dead straight but even a slight deviation in level as in canted left or right the bbs hook in that direction.
Good point, the human factor once again! Is the gun really that level in the field? Has anyone installed a level bubble on their gun? SMILE

I recently watched a test on youtube of a guy using a AA 6.01 inner barrel and a crazy jet 6.01 inner barrel , comparing the two for accuracy.
He took a dozen or so hand held shots with both barrels and I believe three shots or so had closer groupings with the crazy jet, so he assumed the crazy jet was slightly better for accuracy. I thought, what kind of test was that? So many variables? Why are there so many tests like that on youtube?

I would think the only practical test would be inside with no weather to consider using a vice holding the gun. But even then was the gun placed in the vice exactly the same during each test for each gun? I doubt it. Human error is always a factor. Someone should design a AI for testing using GPS. No room for error.
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Old 06-22-2019, 08:53 AM   #60
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https://www.airsoftsniperforum.com/4...ncave-nub.html

https://www.airsoftsniperforum.com/4...e-testing.html

Read those threads for nub and barrel testing.
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