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Old 07-04-2019, 04:36 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Jeppe View Post
I don't think that's comparable. The problem with tax systems is that they are large and complicated to enforce. So being able to get away with tax avoidance is not justifiable reason in itself. Bank robbery would not be OK just because you don't get caught either.



It is different for this issue, as it is very easy for field owners to carry out the increased control of players.


It is stupid to allow joule creep. It is a completely different goal of tuning than efficiency. There is no point.
It isn't any different at all. Tax avoidance isn't something you 'get away' with. There's very legal ways to go about it. You just have to understand the rules as they are written.

Also, there are very efficient guns that are capable of joule creeping. If you design a rifle to fire the best with a particular bb weight that a field doesn't test at chrono, that doesn't make your rifle inefficient.

If they're gonna judge you by FPS only, then thems the rules. You don't like that someone could potentially 'abuse' those rules in your eyes? Don't play there. It's your personal responsibility to keep yourself safe. Not anyone else.

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Old 07-04-2019, 09:19 PM   #92
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By the way, I don't think Nov has made these bb's to make max JC. That is really a side issue. What he is aiming for is something different that will get him more range (we have all wanted that) and he is also wanting this to make him a lot of money. (I would love to be in his shoes).
My personal belief is that they will get more range if you have the energy to carry the bb.
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Old 07-05-2019, 02:41 AM   #93
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I wonder how cylinder volumen will actually work out with these new barrel size.

At the end these are super wide bore barrels with a super heavy bb - shouldnt this be an issue?
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Old 07-05-2019, 08:17 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Zero Roaster View Post
Yeah, I'm not quite cool with that illustration, it's a bit misleading. The BB starts generating lift as soon as it leaves the hop up and the spin is active...it rides the top of the barrel, especially once it's gotten over the 'shock' of the hop and makes it to the end of the barrel....hence the skid marks towards the end at the top of the barrel. Now, skid marks are bad...that means you're losing inertia due to frictional losses. If that's enough to skid the BB, that's quite a bit. I try and find as hard a BB as possible and really make sure the barrel is like glass to minimize all of that...keep the energy in the BB!
Why would the bb have lift while the pressure is at the back...? A spinning ball doesn't fly, what matters is the combo between the pressure differential and back spin. Even you said back wind for a bb is like stalling a plane, then the bb in the barrel would be like with a back wind blowing faster than the bbs travel speed, why would that create lift?
Brass barrels seems to gum up the bore more than smooth steel barrel. More polished is the barrel, less gum up.
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Old 07-05-2019, 10:45 AM   #95
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The pressure differential youíre observing is above the BB, but the BB is moving forward, so the smoke is residual pressure differential. Keep in mind this is happening at a few hundred feet per second, right? Now as for the BB in the bore, itís under extreme positive pressure from the rear and at absolute maximum backspin...itís being launched...but it is still going like hell. Hahahaha. Thatís why the BB doesnít lift immediately coming out of the barrel and lifts only after being in free air for a split second. The rearward vector is still dominant to the point where the BB climbs...but it is lifting the whole time, it just depends which vector is in charge at that moment during the trajectory of flight.


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Old 07-05-2019, 01:35 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Jinxi View Post
So the kit is now available for the new bb on his site, the ssg24 and vsr 10. I was wondering where on the field, they test guns with 0.2 (belgium), so you can't pass then since his BB's only come in 0.58. Let's see which manufacturers will join the hype...
No no, you can load smaller BBs...you'll chrono with 200% less joules than you'll have when you load .58g 6.44mm BBs...

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Originally Posted by Jeppe View Post
You're cheating dude. You're pointing out that it will not be as easily to cheat with this system as with others.
This Nov kit will joule creep more than just about anyone else's build out there currently, using plastic rounds. WAAAY easier.

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Originally Posted by Zero Roaster View Post
The pressure differential youíre observing is above the BB, but the BB is moving forward, so the smoke is residual pressure differential. Keep in mind this is happening at a few hundred feet per second, right? Now as for the BB in the bore, itís under extreme positive pressure from the rear and at absolute maximum backspin...itís being launched...but it is still going like hell. Hahahaha. Thatís why the BB doesnít lift immediately coming out of the barrel and lifts only after being in free air for a split second. The rearward vector is still dominant to the point where the BB climbs...but it is lifting the whole time, it just depends which vector is in charge at that moment during the trajectory of flight.
As I understand it the BB's motion relative to where we stand and where the rifle sits is irrelevant; the Magnus Effect should be causing the BB to move downward while in the barrel because in terms of the air environment inside the barrel, the BB isn't moving forward, air is moving past it, e.g. the opposite of what happens when it leaves the inner barrel. Look at that gif again; that's exactly what's happening inside a barrel- where the right side is the chamber and the left is the muzzle. The BB's position in space over time is irrelevant; the air is passing from right to left around the BB, causing the Magnus Effect to pull the BB down. Right?
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Old 07-05-2019, 01:39 PM   #97
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Also I feel like a lot of people here are letting their hopes and dreams about longer range interfere with the only hard science we have on this subject strongly suggesting:
For a given muzzle energy, and a given material [density] (not just WEIGHT), smaller BBs travel further than larger BBs.
Every piece of actual, hard science suggests this. We have literally not a single reason to believe bigger BBs are better, other than Novritsch's marketing.
I honestly don't know why anyone in this thread would still have hope that these BBs are anything other than joule-creep-devices designed to milk sheep and abuse bad chrono practices.

Also my opinion on joule creep being 'cheating':
I see Google claims the definition is "to act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage", but there are multiple definitions, and the one I've been operating on and the one I feel is most applicable is simply "to violate rules". In that case, building for joule creep is absolutely not cheating, plain and simple. Obviously it's a bit sneaky, because we know what the rules are trying to do, but the simple truth is they aren't doing it if they aren't doing it. And one of the strongest arguments against it being cheating is the scenario brought up by others: Building a rifle tuned for peak efficiency on .[hefty]g BBs; it would joule creep chrono'd with a lower weight- how can we tell the builder that's wrong? Are we supposed to expect everyone tune for BBs they won't use, just to compensate for illogical rules? And if this is an acceptable case of joule creep, where is the line drawn?
Fields need to not use garbage rules and instead try to turn on their brains.
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Old 07-05-2019, 02:52 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMarker View Post
As I understand it the BB's motion relative to where we stand and where the rifle sits is irrelevant; the Magnus Effect should be causing the BB to move downward while in the barrel because in terms of the air environment inside the barrel, the BB isn't moving forward, air is moving past it, e.g. the opposite of what happens when it leaves the inner barrel. Look at that gif again; that's exactly what's happening inside a barrel- where the right side is the chamber and the left is the muzzle. The BB's position in space over time is irrelevant; the air is passing from right to left around the BB, causing the Magnus Effect to pull the BB down. Right?
I don’t know, but I know for a fact that the gif you posted is with a topspin and not backspin, so all of your data after the fact is probably wrong.

Edit: I looked at that gif longer. Wrong again, it’s a gif of “bb” outside barrel in air and not inside barrel. And it’s traveling in opposite direction (it’s “going” right) from what you suggest.
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Old 07-05-2019, 03:47 PM   #99
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You misunderstand. It's not a BB, it's not outside, it's not in a barrel. The image is a model for the Magnus Effect. In the model, the gas environment is moving right to left, with the object spinning clockwise. Summarized in a broader sense:
The object's spin is moving downward against the front of the high pressure zone [causing it to move downward].

A hopped BB flying across a field:
The object's spin is moving upward against the front of the high pressure zone [causing it to move upward].
A hopped BB inside a barrel:
The object's spin is moving downward against the front of the high pressure zone [causing it to move downward].

Think: Inside the barrel, forces are acting on the BB to make it move X direction (forward, speeding up), but outside the barrel, forces are acting on the BB to make it move the opposite direction (backward, slowing down)- that's the same fluid environment allowing for the Magnus Effect to occur, and is the same swap controlling upward/downward force.

You have to forget about which direction the BB is moving in space- it doesn't matter. A BB hops when we shoot it not because of which way it's spinning compared to its trajectory through space, but which way it's spinning compared to its trajectory through the fluid environment of gas. The gif is a model for the BB inside a barrel where the chamber is on the right and the muzzle is on the left- the BB is spinning clockwise (backspin) and the air is moving around the BB from right (chamber) to left (muzzle). The gif would also be a model for a BB in outside air if it was fired upside-down, from left to right.

[for convenience]
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Old 07-05-2019, 05:31 PM   #100
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I think that nov, is trying to make more money with a new invention to see who falls, and it will only be at the end of who buys that system, will be forced to buy more of those small bottles of 6.44 bb's
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Old 07-05-2019, 05:59 PM   #101
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Forget the GIF. Itís a vector game of whichever has the most applicable force on the BB wins. In the barrel thereís a couple of phenomena which negate the GIF. You have complete pressure in ALL directions pushing the BB out (even though itís already at max spin) which is why for the first stretch of the trajectory the BB is flat. A total flight path of the BB is flat, then a gradual upward arc as the Magnus Effect is maximized in standing atmosphere, then as the BB loses rotational inertia, it starts to drop. This is still flight dynamics...


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Old 07-05-2019, 06:17 PM   #102
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^ See that's a potential argument; I'm not entirely convinced the Magnus Effect really comes into play inside such a highly pressurized and tight environment like an inner barrel- but if it did, it would cause the BB to move down.
Would really love to see a BB in ultra-slow-mo shooting from a translucent barrel.
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Old 07-05-2019, 07:21 PM   #103
1tonne   1tonne is offline
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I have had this discussion with other techs and in my head, both have good reasoning. Top and bottom. To me the bb traveling on the bottom makes more sense but in the end, we can discuss it over and over but we will never know unless there is a proper scientific experiment done. (Bags not me doing it. I can't be bothered)
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Old 07-06-2019, 12:06 AM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMarker View Post
^ See that's a potential argument; I'm not entirely convinced the Magnus Effect really comes into play inside such a highly pressurized and tight environment like an inner barrel- but if it did, it would cause the BB to move down.
Would really love to see a BB in ultra-slow-mo shooting from a translucent barrel.
I was basically saying same thing as zero roaster just with less and simpler words. Just to recap me words: that gif doesnít work inside barrel and it has topspin applied not backspin.

Damn you for making me sweat and think, I tried so hard, almost pulled muscles. In the end, it doesnít even matter.
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Old 07-06-2019, 02:15 PM   #105
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Tagged, this seems like a very interesting thread

Last edited by bertha; 07-06-2019 at 02:17 PM.
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