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Old 07-10-2019, 06:33 PM   #1
1tonne   1tonne is offline
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My Personal History With Joule Creep

So our club is changing chronoing with 0.2gm bb's to measuring with joules.
Over the years I have joule creeped and a lot of that time, it was without knowing. I thought I would show my progression with JC and why it is just a natural occurrence that does not mean the person should be called a cheat.
My first AEG was a G36 (back in 2009). I upgraded the inner barrel to a 200mm x 6.01mm (or there about). So short. I also bought a second AEG which was a DMR. A Jing Gong SR25 at 450fos on 0.2gm (our club limit).
Eventually I got annoyed with the size of the SR25 and so I decided to make the G36 into a DMR. So a short, light DMR 450fps rifle. I put in a bigger spring and replaced the plastic piston with an aluminium one and also an aluminium piston head so it could handle the bigger spring. Since I was still learning about cylinder to barrel ratios and did not have full understanding, I also put in a full cylinder even though it did not match the short barrel. So without me knowing, the rifle was capable of joule creeping.
I used a 9.6v NIMH battery (Lipo's were only new out) and tested it and it was very, very sluggish. Too sluggish to game with. (The spring was too big for the weak motors we had back then).
With 0.25gm bb's, the G36 shot similar distance to most other 450fps rifles. I also had some 0.3gm bb's and some 0.36gm bb's. The 0.3gm performed well but the 0.36gm performed much better (Heavy bb's were very expensive back then). They went a long way. Longer than anyone else. Back in the day, we did not know about joule creep. We just thought that the reason the rifle performed so well was because the heavier bb's kept their energy for longer and also the G36 just had some amazing air seal that was able to lift the heavier bb's.
Anyway, the motor in the G36 was very sluggish and not really gameable and so I thought it best to change most of the parts to my SR25 to make it the long range weapon (It had a powerful motor)
So I changed over the cylinder, spring, piston and piston head, and I also swapped over the bucking and inner barrel as they were the things that helped give a great air seal which I thought helped give this incredible range. I could not change the air nozzle as they were not compatible but the SR25 air nozzle still sealed well with the parts from the G36.
I played like this for a long time (years).
Eventually I heard that some American places were chronoing with joules and not fps. I did not know why they were chronoing with joules though. They were just weird for doing it. Anyway I checked my rifle with joules and lone behold I was getting extra energy. I can't remember how much extra but I would guess I was getting about 0.5 of a joule extra. Back then, the people that I told just thought that that was good teching. An airsoft technician had made the perfect air seal that could get long range. So I continued playing and nobody complained.
About 5 years ago I learned that the places chronoing with joules where doing this so that someone could not joule creep. So, I learned what joule creep was but still did not know what caused heavy bb's to creep.
In my opinion, I was not cheating. I had played for many years like this and people had not complained. In fact, people had complimented how I had got my rifle to work. So to me, making an aeg with just average normal parts that most people would use, that shoots a long way is just good teching and not cheating. Give credit where credit is due.
Anyway, I decided to study JC in bolt action rifles and came up with some amazing results. But these results were easily done. Bolt actions naturally creep because of the long cylinders.
I then went about experimenting with AEG's and seeing how much I could creep one. I knew that people with HPA's could easily creep their rifles and so I wanted a challenge that would either rival an HPA or better it. In the end I manage to creep an AEG 300%. Yes that is correct. 3 times more energy than it register on 0.2gm bb's. It is possible. This was not a gameable rifle and the gearbox did not last long (I actually went though 3 gearboxes in about a month. Grrrrrr. Annoying). I felt I had succeeded in my experiment and so that was the end of my experimenting.
I put the original internals back into the SR25 that I had used for some time previously with a slightly short inner barrel and that is what I have now.
Our club rules had changed over the years and so a DMR is now only allowed 420fps on 0.2gm (1.63 joule) which my rifle does, though on 0.4gm bb's it is firing at 2.2 joules.
Unfortunately for me in the next few weeks, the club looks as though it will be changing to joules and that will be the end of my joule creep journey.
So I have been through a journey with joule creep. From not having it to having it without knowing and playing for some time like that. People thought it was great and did not have any angst against the rifle. Then to know about joule creep and experimenting to the point that most people would never be able to achieve. Now I will be back to just a normal energy rate. It has been fun though.
I do have more ideas to achieve long range without JC and as an airsoft tech, I look forward to it.
Hope you enjoyed my rant.
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Old Yesterday, 12:26 AM   #2
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wall of texts.... Hmmm.... nice for read xD/
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Old Yesterday, 01:34 AM   #3
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IMO all fields should be chronoing with joules, not fps
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Unread Yesterday, 04:50 AM   #4
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We've always chrono-ed with Joules instead of FPS w/ 0.2g here, not sure why people are using FPS w/ 0.2g as a reference rather than at least FPS w/their BBs of choice, since it's a difficult way to accurately tell if the gun is under/overpowered or not.

Though some people still practiced measuring joules with the hosts' BBs (usually 0.25g since nobody uses 0.2 here anymore) to make sure people don't cheat the chrono with super heavy BBs, but hey you can't prevent cheaters who are determined to cheat.
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Unread Yesterday, 06:08 AM   #5
wyz2285   wyz2285 is offline
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Rules with Joule checking is only fair, using BBs the person intended to use during game. Say I built my rifle/tuned the pressure for 360 FPS with 0,43s, the joules will change with ammo weight, no rifle is that ideal that converses the same energy at all weights. Specially HPA systems. In HPA the air is released slower than a spring system, the fps is often compensated by volume. My rifle fires 370 fps with 0,43, but it will happily launch a 6mm steel ball bearing as well. However I play with 0,43, the inevitable "joule creep" I could have shouldn't keep me from playing.
Honestly, there are more accidents now even though we reduced AEGs to 1j, while before it was unlimited, but with experienced players. The newbies with gun pointed at head height and full auto constantly on is the problem lol
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Unread Yesterday, 08:13 AM   #6
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Field in my area doesn't allow full auto on anything but LMGs with a 50ft MED. They still chrono with .2g and not joules. Honestly, that has probably helped more for safety than switching to a joule based system would.

Some complain "I can't use half my gun if I can't use full auto!" But honestly, with the gearsets and HPA systems out today you can fire on semi auto almost as fast as a real steel full auto rifle would actually allow - with more control. None of that crazy 40 round per second crap.

If you train and actually use firearms, which for many is the point of airsoft (milsim), then you know that full auto is rarely ever used for anything other than suppressive fire.

No one wants to get raped at 10-25ft with 20-40 bbs in less than a second.
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Unread Yesterday, 01:36 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konsta View Post
IMO all fields should be chronoing with joules, not fps
Honestly that's not even really an opinion. The only way chronoing on a static .2g BB weight isn't wrong is if it's done in accordance with insurance policies which were made...you guessed it, wrongly, lol.
Regulation is conceived for safety -> policies are written for site insurance -> rules are enforced on site
There is loss at every step.
The root logic is [I suppose, arguably] based on impact energy per surface area, and everything afterward is an over-simplified attempt to apply that logic- and it's where everything falls apart :P
But the order of blame priority goes left to right- if the insurance says XFPS on a .2g BB and a site enforces that and a player adheres to that, the failure of enforcing the root logic falls on the insurance, if someone joule creeps. At least, in a very 'valid but maybe not sound', legal sense. Of course purposely joule-creeping, let's say 300%, is ethically questionable, even if it doesn't break rules :P

But fck all that- the input I really feel overshadows this is people's perception.
A little anecdote: I went to a casual field once - I'd been there once before - and knowing the terrain, decided to tune my rifle down into standard rifle power limits so that I could engage under 100ft. Well I did just that, and the opponent was furious- even after repeatedly calling out that I was not using sniper power limits, but rather the standard rifle limit. I just walked back to staging, and while the admin totally understood and wasn't mad, decided logic had no place there, and I still had to employ a 100ft MED, despite having the same power output as people who are allowed to blast you on full-auto at a much closer distance...
Along with 1tonne's experience of never having any problems with his significant joule creep, the above shows - not only with the reaction of my opponent, but with the admin enforcing larger MED based on nothing but psychology - that hard science, math, reality, just doesn't actually make much of a difference in the face of how people feel.
Hell, I recently had an extensive conversation (wall of text after wall of text) over Facebook in the Sniper Ops group with a guy who was vehemently and absolutely against ceramic BBs - denouncing them at every angle from "we've been doing fine without them" to "work on field-craft instead of buying performance" - then, I kid you not, a week or so later I see the same guy pondering using Nov's new 6.44mm gimmick.........speechless, honestly. Clearly he was 100% motivated by feelings in the discussion on ceramic- the fear of harder material. I mean that wasn't a secret in our discussion, but to see the sheer significance illustrated so clearly...ALL this guy's arguments melted away when the BB wasn't ceramic- disappeared into thin air. Feelings are so strong, that even when someone knows it might be part of their motivation, it often infiltrates every part of them, convincing them they also have plenty of logical motivation, when they don't.

I don't even really know what my point is...it's just absolute chaos out there

My opinion in a very zoomed-out/macroscopic sense: Full-seal eye-pro rated appropriately by a standard, mouth/teeth protection, and INCREASE power limits, especially for BASRs, by a lot. I also actually understand the bans on full-auto given how stupid and reckless people can be with it and the energy it can impart- all compared to the potential of single shot and semi-auto.
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Unread Yesterday, 02:39 PM   #8
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I am on the other side of the fence with this one. I really don't like joule creeping, not because it's bending rules, but because 90% of people where I play would not be able to handle that extra energy responsibly. Here in southern california, it's speedsoft central, and a lot of the younger kids here are already cranking out their 30 rounds per second. Me personally, I don't need 2+ joules flying at me at 30 rounds per second. Granted, a lot of the fields I frequent are typically semi auto only, but hair triggers do make trigger spam a very real thing. If players were responsible with higher energy outputs, I'd be all for it. Unfortunately, that isn't the case where I get to play.
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Unread Yesterday, 04:10 PM   #9
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So it's basically allow joule creep or allow full auto on non LMG type weapons.

Both make sense from a players perspective. I wouldn't appreciate being hit with an HPA rig rolling 40rps even if it WASN'T joule creeping.

But with semi only, and good refs, I don't mind being hit a few times with a slightly overpowered gun since it improves gameplay from an engagement distance perspective. I also play outdoors only typically.

Also to consider is the fact that even if someone can afford an HPA rig that shoots 30-40RPS and creeps, few people want to pay for .4g+ bbs at 40RPS.
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Unread Yesterday, 04:42 PM   #10
1tonne   1tonne is offline
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So I know no one here has had a go at me but I had better clarify that I have only ever joule creeped DMR's or bolt action rifles. These do have MED's that I personally increase above what the club has. People have even told me that they like the way I play because it is safe. I take long range shots and I enjoy it. I also enjoy pulling out my pistol. I consider that part of being a good sniper is to be able to pull the pistol out under pressure and use it and to know when to do it. When on the field, if I see someone with a bolt action or DMR on their back and they are holding a pistol ready to fire, in the back of my head I am thinking, "that person is ready and they know what they are doing", and that is what I would like people to think of me. So pulling out the pistol when under pressure and within MED's is part of being a good sniper.
In fact, the other day, I was walking down along a path and from 3 meters away someone opened up with full auto and missed (Don't know how they missed at that range), anyway I pulled my pistol out and fired rapidly into the bush they were hiding in. They ended up getting me though but I felt really good because I had done what I was supposed to under pressure.
Also, I do agree that clubs should be chronoing with joules. It makes more sense. I will just miss the teching and study that I have done into the science.


Cool news is that I have a new science that I am experimenting with. I made a rifle fire 0.4gm bb's (no r-hop needed) out to 55 meters at only 0.5 joules (Had a damaged piston head and so today I hope to get full energy rating). My club limit is 1.63 joules. Should be fun.


Other cool thing is that I went along to a club meeting last night and I have been givin the go ahead to try out a new sniper class that we are calling "Electric Sniper Rifle" or ESR. These are semi auto rifles that have a 4 second delayer. So they can only fire 1 shot every 4 seconds. These are very high powered rifles that have the same energy rating as a bolt action. Cool fun.
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Unread Today, 12:09 AM   #11
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So I am now excited. I thought of a new way of building a rifle recently and I finally got try it out. It is different and although it is simple, not many people do this. I am so excited. Currently the rifle is firing at 1.28 joules and I am reaching 70 meters accurately. I can still increase the joules by another 0.32 joules. So I may reach the 80 meter mark accurately. Excited.
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Unread Today, 02:00 AM   #12
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Almost all fields in Finland have the same limits for joules.
Full auto weapons and pistols, shotguns etc 1,6 joules
Dmr: 2,25 joules
BASR: 3 joules
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Unread Today, 02:15 AM   #13
1tonne   1tonne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Konsta View Post
Almost all fields in Finland have the same limits for joules.
Full auto weapons and pistols, shotguns etc 1,6 joules
Dmr: 2,25 joules
BASR: 3 joules

The problem with those energy ratings is that they are too close.
DMR does not have much of an advantage over Full Auto and BASR does not have much advantage over DMR (It may look as though the Sniper has an advantage do but the higher the energy the more the diminishing returns. So not much of an advantage). It is hard to get the energy rating right though.
My pick is:
Full Auto = 1 joule (Approx Range 50-55 meters)
DMR = 1.7 joules (Approx Range 65-70 meters)
BASR = 3.33 joules (Approx Range 75-85 meters)


A full auto rifle at 1 joule may be accurate up to 50-55 meters but it can easily be aimed into the air and get bb's raining down on the target. So really effective range for an AEG is a little more than what people actually think. Maybe 60 meters. A bolt action on the other hand has one shot and it is accurate out to long range but to repeat that shot and correct for windage is quite hard. So there needs to be clear advantages between each class.
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Unread Today, 02:51 AM   #14
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But we have a MED of 15 meters for both BASR and DMR. Full auto guns don't have a MED
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Unread Today, 02:54 AM   #15
Konsta   Konsta is offline
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And the 1,6 joules is critical for beginners since most of stock full auto AEGs shoot around 1,4 joules so they don't need to tech them
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