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Old 09-09-2019, 12:16 PM   #31
wyz2285   wyz2285 is offline
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I'm certain anyone here, in this thread, is fully aware how to use their rifles safely. However not everyone is, and there won't be a ref next to every player to enforce MED.
If we follow the logic of MED is enforced up to perfection, then we could play with low power airguns as anti material rifles with +50m MED, you can even start using real ballistics... So where do you draw the line?
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:31 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyz2285 View Post
I'm certain anyone here, in this thread, is fully aware how to use their rifles safely. However not everyone is, and there won't be a ref next to every player to enforce MED.
If we follow the logic of MED is enforced up to perfection, then we could play with low power airguns as anti material rifles with +50m MED, you can even start using real ballistics... So where do you draw the line?
None of that makes sense though really- there's no evidence ceramic is more dangerous than the average plastic already out there. When Pu7z says
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and don't run around smiling at shots, I think that's safe enough.
it's unnecessary and redundant, because the exact same concern exists for average plastic BBs out there (seriously, yearly I see someone break a tooth, and so far I've only seen it happen outside of MED with players who are definitely not using anything but plastic).
There's no slippery slope to concern ourselves with because there's no slope at all- there's no "if ceramic is allowed, what's next?", because there is no discernible difference between ceramic and plastic. That's the argument.

Now, I'm only speaking in terms of the information we have currently. That is to say, I'm not SO thoroughly convinced ceramic is harmless to a point where I would employ it without asking.
That said, I really can't imagine what kind of information could come about to suggest ceramic is more dangerous with plastic already destroying teeth and optics...

Here's a related interesting question: Does anyone know of someone who's been shot in the tooth and it didn't break or chip?

Fun fact: I was hit directly between the lips once; the BB went right into my mouth and across my tongue, stopping before it hit the back of my mouth- it caused no pain what so ever. Crazy! Lol
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Old 09-10-2019, 12:14 PM   #33
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I've seen people hit in the tooth and it not break or chip with plastic bbs. I would much rather be shot in the teeth with plastic than ceramic or metal.

That said, I also think you're an idiot if you don't protect your face with a half mask at the least.

Fields will not enforce full face protection only - so I'm typically a NO on metal bbs - and ceramic is what it is as it's impossible to enforce that as well. The upside is ceramic is so expensive the use % is extremely low.

I'm a dentist.
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:13 PM   #34
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Ok, so let's have two projectiles, one ceramic and one plastic, both travelling with the same energy towards a given target. Much of the resulting impact, will as said, be dependant on what you're hitting....here comes the 'however'. Once the projectile hits it's intended target, there is another transitional force at play whereby the energy (say it is 3.3j or whatever) get transferred to the new medium and exactly how much of that is reflected/dispersed and how much is put through the media.

This is exactly the same kind of thing as hollow points vs. fmj, and all that ballistic jazz. When a plastic BB hits a surface, it has the capability to flex outwards, and even split. It does not retain it's form and much of the impact energy is quickly dissipated. Not so with ceramic. *hypothetical situation here* (not really)...say I'm going to do varmint control at my inlaws' farm. I use a sniper gun for this. A plastic BB annoys a magpie, a ceramic BB will injure or kill it (fear not, it doesn't get left injured...it's cat food). Why? Because the energy is partially reflected through the plastic on impact whereas the ceramic doesn't 'bounce'.

Same goes for airsoft.
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Old 09-10-2019, 01:24 PM   #35
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That's why I say plastic should stay. The difference in elasticity and hardness of the two projectiles when they impact, say a tooth, has the potential to cause greater damage.

Or everyone can just use metal and no face protection and I'll get to place more dental implants. Doesn't matter to me.
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Old 09-10-2019, 02:35 PM   #36
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It would be good to get a close up extra slow video shot of each bb on impact. Maybe a video on a hard surface and a video on a skin type surface (a piece of pork). We may be able to see if the plastic bb flexes and if the ceramic has a different pattern when it hits.
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Old 09-10-2019, 03:31 PM   #37
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We could film it, for entertainment purposes, and I guess for proof positive if required. BUT, I can guarantee the integrity of the ceramic is far superior to plastic. If you can't refire a plastic BB in your rifle because it's deformed from truly being round, we know already that they distort after being fired. Ceramic? Not so sure. You could also use a press and check crush pressure. No doubt the ceramic is harder being of a higher density, and although it would break I have no doubt the plastic would deform and squash (or just split) long before the ceramic.
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Old 09-10-2019, 06:01 PM   #38
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I wasn't really complaining about ceramics... But the energy required to make them useful, as pointed out before, around 5J. That's the thing, does wearing better protection and increase MED means we can keep using heavier rounds and more energy?
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Old 09-10-2019, 10:02 PM   #39
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Ceramics should still be usable at 3.3joules too.
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Old 09-11-2019, 05:47 AM   #40
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In that case, I don't have much against it. If the gained accuracy is really worth the price and slow speed.
If it was popular I'd use protection for my optics though. The energy may not be enough to break glass but certainly hard enough to scratch it.
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Old 09-11-2019, 07:11 AM   #41
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I've shot scopes out with plastic bbs.

I always highly recommend a killflash for glare and bb protection.
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:37 AM   #42
wyz2285   wyz2285 is offline
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Quality glass or red dot?
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Old 09-11-2019, 09:34 AM   #43
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Quality red dots and knockoffs. Never a rifle scope, yet, just due to engagement ranges usually being farther out. Anyway, 3J+ will break/crack most under 150ft with a direct hit.

Funny enough, the people with broken knock offs typically get more upset since they don't come with excellent warranties like Vortex or Aimpoint.
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Old 09-11-2019, 10:01 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by AccurateDMD View Post
Quality red dots and knockoffs. Never a rifle scope, yet, just due to engagement ranges usually being farther out. Anyway, 3J+ will break/crack most under 150ft with a direct hit.

Funny enough, the people with broken knock offs typically get more upset since they don't come with excellent warranties like Vortex or Aimpoint.
God I love the Vortex warranty. I have no worries about my scope out on field because of that.
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Old 09-11-2019, 11:57 AM   #45
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We could film it, for entertainment purposes, and I guess for proof positive if required. BUT, I can guarantee the integrity of the ceramic is far superior to plastic. If you can't refire a plastic BB in your rifle because it's deformed from truly being round, we know already that they distort after being fired. Ceramic? Not so sure. You could also use a press and check crush pressure. No doubt the ceramic is harder being of a higher density, and although it would break I have no doubt the plastic would deform and squash (or just split) long before the ceramic.
Well I'm sure you're absolutely right, but it's not necessarily about absolutes. In terms of damage to a human body, even the softest plastic BB is quite hard. I think it could be genuinely enlightening to see the full hardness range of BBs hitting the human body in slow-mo; it may be the case that in nearly all scenarios, even the softest plastic BB doesn't deform- which would mean essentially no difference due to hardness.
By the way, I'm not convinced you can't re-fire most plastic BBs. I've shot a good spread into a catching system for chronoing, and I've never noticed a single deformed BB. I know what you're thinking - "you probably wouldn't be able to tell just by looking" - but the difference between a 5.9mm and 6.0mm BB is actually readily apparent, so I actually would have expected to notice even a single deformation by now.
Also, it's worth reminding for this discussion, that [according to my data,] using the softest plastic BB as a baseline- the hardest plastic is already 75% harder, with silica being 13 points higher, and ceramic another 12 points. This isn't "plastic versus ceramic", it's clearly a wide spectrum from soft to hard.

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I wasn't really complaining about ceramics... But the energy required to make them useful, as pointed out before, around 5J. That's the thing, does wearing better protection and increase MED means we can keep using heavier rounds and more energy?
Ah okay, well I mean, this is a realistic perspective, but I think we can all agree that, yes, considering raising power from something like 3 to 5 joules is a considerable increase that warrants concern. I'm more thinking 'one at a time', about specifically if the hardness is an issue.
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Ceramics should still be usable at 3.3joules too.
it really would be up to an individual's discretion to decide what's "usable". I mean there are pros and cons- heavier means more range and less susceptibility to wind etc., but it also means limited ability to react to small windows of shot opportunity and easier for the enemy to see and dodge...
Hell, technically heavier BBs would still offer some pros even in a case where you can't hop them to a flat trajectory.

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God I love the Vortex warranty. I have no worries about my scope out on field because of that.
You have no idea how hard I smashed that like button.
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