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Old 09-11-2019, 02:46 PM   #46
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True, the ceramic BB would mean more accuracy, etc, but at what point does airsoft stop becoming a game and more of an actual combative situation? We all agree that a decently fired sniper BB will still deliver a well noticed impact at 80-100 yards, so why do we need more than that?

We've all gotten oodles of kills without the ceramics, why the need to change the game? I know this sounds ridiculous, but I don't feel limited by my .4g BB's at 475 fps. Not one bit. I can still bag a decent shot, and if anything, it forces me to be a better hunter. More importantly, I think that the rifle packs enough punch as it is. I can still deliver one helluva welt even with the MED in place so why would I possibly want more?
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Old 09-19-2019, 01:16 PM   #47
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Idk, I don't really get this sentiment. I don't need a reason to investigate options to push the limits of range/accuracy, I would need a reason not to do it.

For me, impact energy isn't even a part of this conversation. I'm not implicating increased muzzle energy when using ceramics, and I've never seen discussion on impact energy's positive correlation to BB weight at static muzzle energy from a .2g to a .5g BB - which is considerable at 2.5x the weight - so I'm assuming we're not addressing it here either (where a .69g ceramic BB is 3.5x the base weight- not much more than what a .5g already brings to the table).
It seems to me that people just hear 'ceramic' (or 'metal' or 'silica' for that matter) and panic.
I talked to one guy in an airsoft sniper FaceBook page who fought the idea of ceramics for paragraph after paragraph- then later I saw him commenting intrepidly on a post about the Full Thrust kit...One of those is a measurable improvement to range/accuracy that introduces uncertain injury risk increase, and the other is snake-oil with well-understood injury risk increase...
The more I talk, the more I realize the [*open] adoption of ceramic is completely hopeless (at least for some time) solely because of the reaction the word garners in people.
*open adoption because, funnily enough, ceramic is out there being sold for airsoft purposes and people are using it without even knowing it's ceramic...
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Old 09-19-2019, 02:46 PM   #48
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Personally I can see both sides of the argument. I would like to have the ceramics and metal allowed as my goal is always to push the limits of our rifles (We all aim for the best if possible) but because they are harder, there probably is more risk to cracking a lens. Though heavy weight plastic bb's could also crack a lens as well but because they are softer, there is less chance of it happening.
I am quiet sure most people would not be against 0.66gm plastic bb's.
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Old 09-30-2019, 02:35 PM   #49
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pu7z View Post
I don't think you'll even get a 50% better shot to shot consistency using ceramics. The added weight of the ZRO2 bbs helps against wind at least.
But a PVC vs Ceramic of the same weight won't see much improvement I think, maybe you'll jump from a 6/10 shots on target to 8/10, in good conditions.
I mean 50% would be an enormous improvement- that's more than I'd expect. But also considering a certain someone was able to observe a difference between G10 and G100 .69s...I'd be blown away if the difference between ceramic and plastic at any weight wasn't clear as day.
Buuut I hate talk and only care about hard science. I'd like to at least get a basic test on the books ASAP, however I'm saving my Nites for the formal indoor testing, and they're going to be a pain to track as well; currently looking for some G10 Al2O3 in 5.95mm (maybe 6mm if necessary)...
Got a basic test done to compare plastic to ceramic:

Left: BLS BIO .45g (.448g)
Right: Grade 20 Al2O3 6.00mm (.446g)

Distance: 39m
Power: 3.48J

I used the closest heavier plastic BB to the ceramics for this test to - if anything - give slight advantage to plastic; this worked out well because the BLS BIO .45g BBs used to represent plastics scored about average (not awesome, not awful) in the analysis below, and the Grade 20 Al2O3 6.00mm ceramics scored on the worse end of ceramic consistency.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Process:
I cleaned my barrel with alcohol and fired ceramic first [to avoid more build-up]- 15 rounds each. I used a bipod and at 10x zoom was able to confirm my crosshair was comfortably within the drawn ring for each shot (forgot to measure its diameter, but I'm thinking about 3cm?), and had a bubble level guaranteeing the cant was the same (should be zero degrees) for each shot. Initially I hoped both BBs would use the same hop tune without changing it, but I immediately saw that was not possible, and that I would need to adjust for a flat trajectory with both separately (meaning power would be slightly different for the two- though the .001g weight difference and .048mm size difference would also mean that as well). It was clear ceramic is much more sensitive to pressure adjustment; in fact I was so unaccustomed to how squirrely adjusting for them was, that I almost wondered if I had caused some kind of problem when I cleaned the barrel- this feeling was compounded by my disappointment with both BBs' accuracy. For this reason - if only to ease my mind - I wish I had brought a third sheet to test BLS .48g BBs, to ensure my rifle was still shooting properly after the clean- but for the purpose of this test, it isn't much of a concern (we're just here to see if ceramic and plastic differ significantly regarding accuracy). A more considerable regret I have is that - as I was rushed to complete this between games at a field - I didn't spend enough time getting the ceramics to a flat trajectory, resulting in 7 out of 15 misses...yes, you read that correctly, seven BBs didn't even hit the sheet- however these misses were so damn close to the sheet that - coupled with the results of the plastics - I don't feel as though the comparison is useless. The spread for the plastics came out to 40cm (distance between two farthest impacts) with no misses, and the ON-target spread of the ceramics was 11.5cm, which if doubled due to the off-target shots (I think that's sufficient, if not slightly excessive), still comes out to ceramics being about 42.5% more accurate...

I'm a little frustrated with the sloppiness of the test, but regardless, it seems clear that ceramics are considerably more accurate than plastics.
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Old 09-30-2019, 05:17 PM   #50
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I wouldn't say anything is clear yet...

I do like the range you used. 39M is a great distance to select as it's far enough to get decent repeatable groupings and not too far to allow wind to become a huge factor.

Was testing done indoors or out by the way?

I would like to see another test, indoors if this one was not, and not rushed.

Having proper time to set hop up for each bb along with testing to ensure each is shooting the best it can is important. Also, if shooting indoors you could technically use other weight plastic bbs that perhaps have better consistency, or simply go with the .48g like you said (even though they are not the most consistent that BLS makes... according to your data). You would run into issues with power output and that could bring more questions to the table...

Anyway, I think you've just signed up for more testing!
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Old 09-30-2019, 09:38 PM   #51
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I guess I don't see why there is even a question as to which is more consistent. Assuming both "bbs" are the same weight coming out of the same rifle the ceramic will always shoot more consistently. This is just coming down to their manufacturing process and target market. Plastic airsoft bbs are made for this market, which specifically demands low cost disposable projectiles. The precision of the bbs realistically is a secondary concern. Ceramic "bbs" aren't even bbs in the first place. At G20 precision you are looking at check valve seals and consumer bearing applications. At G10 and below you are talking about industrial bearing balls which require precision levels that are honestly hard to comprehend.

From memory, most bb manufacturers state 5.95 +/- 0.01mm. On the face of it that sounds good, but that's nearly 2 thousandths (0.002") of what I assume is lot diameter variation. That would put normal airsoft bbs at Grade 1000, which is comically low for precision work. Grade 20's lot variation is 0.00004". Grade 5 is 0.000001".

Now if we were to compare ceramic vs plastic at the same precision level it might be a little more interesting. I think at that point it would come down to how uniformly the density of the material is produced.
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Old 10-01-2019, 08:36 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMarker View Post
Initially I hoped both BBs would use the same hop tune without changing it, but I immediately saw that was not possible, and that I would need to adjust for a flat trajectory with both separately (meaning power would be slightly different for the two- though the .001g weight difference and .048mm size difference would also mean that as well). It was clear ceramic is much more sensitive to pressure adjustment;
Yeah, the size difference does that. For example I use the same hop settings on my SRS at 3.9J for .48s and .69s. I use R-hop and a mancraft kit, for reference.
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Old 10-01-2019, 09:19 AM   #53
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Meanwhile in my region anything past 0.4 starts getting ridiculous solely because the BB couldn't be propelled with enough force kek

I'm not really sure if launching heavy BBs like 0.66-0.69 would be a sensible choice even if you can. For one that kind of stuff would be really expensive since it's incredibly specialized, you probably have to buy it in China in bulk to make it sensible. And at 0.66g those things even if you can fire em' reasonably strong enough so that they don't become pee shots, they would travel so slowly people can dodge even if they didn't see it immediately in the first place.

And that what will happen to the inner barrels you happen to shoot the ceramic pellets with? Plastics would give way to steel barrels because they are a lot softer, but what about the really hard ceramic bearings?
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Old 10-01-2019, 01:08 PM   #54
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Maybe I should clarify the point of the test. I may have gone through "a lot" of effort for low-quality results where some shots weren't even marked, but it was only intended to be a comment in a thread- a rebuttal to the following:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pu7z View Post
a PVC vs Ceramic of the same weight won't see much improvement I think, maybe you'll jump from a 6/10 shots on target to 8/10, in good conditions.
I didn't intend for this to be something I'd ever evangelize...or even reference. The only tests I'll really care about will come from a windless environment (this quick test was outdoors- though I purposely went within the trees to shoot, so there was little wind if any).

Quote:
Originally Posted by AccurateDMD View Post
Also, if shooting indoors you could technically use other weight plastic bbs that perhaps have better consistency
This is an exciting possibility for me. I've always been torn on the "heavier is more accurate" concept; it often plays out very true in practice because even slight wind has a major effect on BBs. However I really wonder if - assuming it's shown that 'consistency' according to my data does in fact translate into actual consistency firing shots - a lighter BB of higher consistency will outperform a heavier BB of slightly lower consistency in a windless environment. In reality, I believe it to be a mix of the two- consistency given weight. So, for example, a .001g variation is less significant for a heavier BB than for a lighter one. This may actually be easy to translate into meaningful data visualizations (simply a ratio of variation to weight). Maybe I'll play with that starting now...
Anyway, Accurate, you're outlining my dreams (er, hopefully plans) for the BB analysis :P I never intended it to be solely lab tests- the true goal is indeed indoor shooting tests.

Quote:
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And that what will happen to the inner barrels you happen to shoot the ceramic pellets with? Plastics would give way to steel barrels because they are a lot softer, but what about the really hard ceramic bearings?
Your barrel gets scratched. Is it significant? Doesn't seem to be, for me, yet... However if you get a hard enough barrel made, I've been told you're essentially polishing the barrel.
As for the weight, it has been discussed a bit if you want to take a look back a page or so- yes, reasonably prohibitive for many I'm sure, after all, plenty of people already choose lighter than .48g. That being said, it's also been addressed that ceramics exist at lower weights.
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Old 10-01-2019, 02:30 PM   #55
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Agreed, Mr. Marker. I don't think weight is that much of a factor in accuracy. How the BB is delivered by the system to optimize it's flight path is. In the case of atmospherics (wind, etc), those are certainly forces that can unbalance the BB and yes, lighter weights are susceptible (of course). Yet, in a still environment at a given range, if the BB is launched correctly, there may not be that significant of a difference. I noticed that between my .3s and my .4's...
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Old 10-01-2019, 04:57 PM   #56
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The difficult part will be balancing the consistency tests of the bbs with the different power levels you will inevitably get between different weights on the same system at different levels of hop up.

It will become extremely difficult to have a cylinder to barrel ratio optimized system for every weight bb you will be testing, and that has - anecdotally at least - shown to have an effect on accuracy and precision when shooting.

There's also theories about what velocity is optimal for accuracy when it comes to bbs at these weight ranges.

Lot of variables at play.
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Old 10-01-2019, 05:13 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by AccurateDMD View Post
The difficult part will be balancing the consistency tests of the bbs with the different power levels you will inevitably get between different weights on the same system at different levels of hop up.

It will become extremely difficult to have a cylinder to barrel ratio optimized system for every weight bb you will be testing, and that has - anecdotally at least - shown to have an effect on accuracy and precision when shooting.

There's also theories about what velocity is optimal for accuracy when it comes to bbs at these weight ranges.

Lot of variables at play.
You nailed that one!! hahahaha...grey area the size of Area 51.
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Old 10-01-2019, 06:13 PM   #58
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Absolutely! Haha. I would be using HPA, so that...could potentially make things easier...
Primarily, I'm just hoping those variables simply aren't too significant- I would test one BB on various powers and volume ratios first. If those two factors really are considerable...well god help us
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Old 10-02-2019, 10:17 AM   #59
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Absolutely! Haha. I would be using HPA, so that...could potentially make things easier...
Primarily, I'm just hoping those variables just aren't too significant- I would test one BB on various powers and volume ratios first. If those two factors really are considerable...well god help us
To be fair there has to be what...5 or 6 million permutations of the airsoft gun? You would pretty much have to build and machine a 'sled' for firing BB's much like the precision shooters use. Sure, it's still a rifle, barely.

Even all the fooling I do with these things is approximate at best. Until you can isolate all of it, we're guessing.
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