Discussion about range - Airsoft Sniper Forum
       

Go Back   Airsoft Sniper Forum > General > General Sniper Talk
General Sniper Talk Dedicated to any and all sniper-related discussions

Like Tree30Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-29-2019, 12:38 AM   #1
Jr. Sniper
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Boulder, CO USA
Posts: 118
Send a message via AIM to beison8000 Send a message via MSN to beison8000
Discussion about range

Greetings all,

I've been thinking about range recently. It seems that the magic number for effective range for a quality BASR is ~300ft/100meters.

This seems to be fixed regardless of the joules we use (2~3J range anyway). Go back to 2012 posts and the great modders were talking about 100meter effective range. Look now and most people still talk about the 100meter goal being what you can expect from a well tuned rifle.

However this makes me wonder a few things:
-Between 2010~ and 2019 we have seen many more BB's being used at higher weights. Before high quality sniper ammo was ~.4g bb's however now I think it is common to use .45g or .48g rounds. We also have really excellent hopup's and hopup chambers that came out in the last 5-7 years that let us lift these heavy bb's and keep them moving straight and precisely. This should increase the overall effective range.
-I have seen a shift in many fields (at least in Colorado, USA) moving the BASR joule limit from 2.3->3.0. This is higher than I used to play with but still it seems that what is considered good effective range stays at 100 meters.
-Many people using a highly upgraded MK23 pistol will have its output capped at ~1-1.5j however still report around 75-80m range. I would think this would be much lower due to the lower energy output.

The above points make me start to wonder about the 100 meter effective range wall. Why does this seem to be the limit?

Looking forward to you expert's thoughts. (Especially magic marker. He's gonna come out with some science stuffs and blow my mind).

Thanks all
  Reply With Quote
Remove Ads
Old 10-29-2019, 01:52 AM   #2
Jr. Sniper
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 404
A few reasons:

1. People are godawful at actually accurately judging range with their eyes only at very far distances. That's where the terms "Airsoft meters" come from with people massively exaggerate their shots (some crazy ones include claiming a 50 meter shot as a hundred). Currently people would use range finders or fields of known distances to find out the actual effective distance of their build.

2. There are little to no major breakthroughs in airsoft technology when it comes to parts precision. Without serious improvements in precision (such as a +/-0.0001 BB with very consistent mass and no bubbles), a Maple Leaf bucking only provides that much hop, with similar levels of precision and deviation.

3. The physics of BBs never changes over time. There is so much energy a less-than-1 gram spherical pellet could work against air resistance with hop applied.

Come to think of it, joules actually scale rather poorly with range. A ball park of 1.5x range increase per Joule double is pretty accurate as far as it goes.
__________________
My loadout:

-Main: Ares Amoeba AS02
- Inner Barrel: Maple Leaf Crazy Jet 310mm 6.04 barrel
- Hop-up bucking: Maple Leaf MR. HOP 60 Degrees
- Spring: Custom
- Cylinder: Edgi Nemo cylinder kit
- Chamber: Action Army blue chamber
- Spring Guide: Edgi Nemo cylinder kit
- Piston: Edgi Nemo cylinder kit
- Scope: Discovery 3-12*42

-Sub: Tokyo Marui 5.1 Hi-Capa
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2019, 03:07 AM   #3
Experienced Sniper
 
Dimitri MdP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Mar del Plata, Argentina
Posts: 1,435
"effective range" is a really loose term, and we all love round numbers. That's why we'll forever see the 100m / 300ft as the goal.

Sure thing, better hops, buckings and barrels have made it easier to minimise deviation, but there's only so much a bb can do. Backspin is backspin is backspin.

As for the difference between 10 years ago and today, back then joule creeping was a speakeasy kind of thing. imho much of the VSR-10 initial success is due to the massive joule creeping capabilities, and so are many of the miracle hop solutions we had throughout time. Nowadays we shoot heavier stuff, but joule creeping is controlled for in most places, so the actual energy stays about the same.
1tonne and MagicMarker like this.
  Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 10-29-2019, 08:31 AM   #4
Advanced Sniper
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 939
The parts have improved in consistency. This has shored up groupings at the ranges airsoft is played at, making it easier than ever to get a gun that CAN shoot to 100M with relative consistency.

That improved consistency of parts has not translated into greater range as the limiting factor the is ammo. There's only so much a round plastic ball can do under 4J.

Even if you had a 4+J build (I can make mine output those numbers with some weight changes to my piston) you won't see a significant EFFECTIVE range increase.

Think about this as well. Most airsoft snipers use a magnification of 3-4x max. At 300ft, that 6mm bb is almost invisible in anything other than perfect conditions. So even if your bb is close to hitting the target, making the adjustment to your aim to get it to hit accurately is nigh impossible. The difficulty of this only increases the further out you go, and increasing magnification won't fix the issue either. This is due to the flight path of the bb rarely being straight enough to stay in your FOV at increased magnification, again limiting your ability to adjust for follow up shots.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2019, 12:25 PM   #5
Jr. Sniper
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Summit nj
Posts: 132
Also at 300ft, even a 45 bb hit is like a butterfly’s kiss and who ever feels that
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2019, 12:45 PM   #6
Jr. Sniper
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Boulder, CO USA
Posts: 118
Send a message via AIM to beison8000 Send a message via MSN to beison8000
Quote:
Originally Posted by Handyguy View Post
Also at 300ft, even a 45 bb hit is like a butterfly’s kiss and who ever feels that
So I don't know about that... My target tree is torso sized and the range finder states range is 98 meters. Every time I hit the tree with my .48's I hear an audible tick sound of the BB hitting. Makes me think i'd feel it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2019, 04:31 PM   #7
Advanced Sniper
 
MagicMarker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Washington
Posts: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by beison8000 View Post
Looking forward to you expert's thoughts. (Especially magic marker. He's gonna come out with some science stuffs and blow my mind).
Flattering :P but I'm not sure there's much left to add!

Piggybacking off of what others have addressed...

This is one of those cases where the surface data isn't all that useful/meaningful due to the inconsistent way it's been collected (something to really always keep in mind when trying to find the objective scientific truth).
First, you've got inconsistent
  • Target distances (effective range / accuracy may not work like a projected cone; accuracy seems to diminish exponentially rather than linearly)
  • Target sizes ('head', 'torso', 'man' making translation/discussion difficult, not to mention whether or not 'torso' and 'man' are the same)
  • Definitions of 'effective' regarding hit percentage, whether or not "lobbing" is necessary, etc.
  • Standards of trajectory and angle (slight over-hop versus flat, use of holdover- consistency may vary based on BB spin, it's unknown)
making the 'question' for each person different, along with many things influencing the 'answer' they come up with, such as
  • Inflated perception of ability to discern distance causing one to inadvertently mislead
  • Subconscious bias causing one to exaggerate
  • Insecurity causing one to outright lie
[and I'm probably forgetting factors] all with the cherry on top of 'liking round numbers'
This is why I really can't recommend giving a damn about the "what range do you get?" pissing contest
And after all, range itself (not effective range / accuracy) is a mathematical equation based on things the builder pretty much can't brag about anyway (BB weight, muzzle energy, etc.)...

It seems kind of crazy, but in the end, I think one of the most significant factors explaining what you've observed is people liking [upward] round[ed] numbers. By my own personal definitions, I would not say "100m effective range" is even a thing currently; I think it's sort of verbally close to the truth, and for that reason has been and still is what people tend to post in text, even if it was significantly far from the truth some time ago, and in my opinion still is off-the-mark.
I do believe the effective range of airsoft guns has increased significantly, but the correlation between reality and what people post in text seems to be, in a word, whack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Handyguy View Post
Also at 300ft, even a 45 bb hit is like a butterfly’s kiss and who ever feels that
Quote:
Originally Posted by beison8000 View Post
So I don't know about that... My target tree is torso sized and the range finder states range is 98 meters. Every time I hit the tree with my .48's I hear an audible tick sound of the BB hitting. Makes me think i'd feel it.
Relatively, there's certainly a lot of lost energy, but I have to agree with beison; while the difference between a shot at maximum range and MED is enormous in pain, if the target is still, it would be hard for the victim to rationalize the impact as anything other than "obviously a BB". Though this is of course complicated if the enemy is under fire, in the rain, or god-forbid moving, lol.
Just a couple weeks ago I hit my longest LRF'd in-game shot at 97m using .48g BBs at something like 3J- it hit his hand and he it was still visibly quite painful, lol.
__________________

Last edited by MagicMarker; 10-29-2019 at 05:31 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2019, 04:50 PM   #8
 
Plazmaburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 3,485
Send a message via Skype™ to Plazmaburn
Hitting a tree and hitting a person wearing tactical gear are two different stories.

Like what the others said its primarily the ammo that is the limitation.
__________________
Don't underestimate me. I know more than I say, think more than I speak, and notice more than you realize.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-29-2019, 05:26 PM   #9
Advanced Sniper
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 939
MagicMarker makes a great point when he talks about 100M ranges being "verbally" close to the truth. The conversations I remember years ago on AirsoftRetreat forums often talked about the mythical 100M shot, but I don't recall quite as many threads like this pointing out all of the issues with claims on internet forums, the lack of affordable rangefinders at the time, the lower popularity of the sport, etc.

100M shots back then were possible, and I made a few with my old Maruzen L96, after many... many... rangefinding and windage shots to dial in a non moving oblivious target.

Then, as now, it's rare for someone to feel a shot at that distance. You've gotta be shooting someone who's likely not moving, has no heavy noise occurring around them (so they can HEAR the bb hit TAC gear), and is paying attention to the game. All three happening at the same time you happen to hit someone at that distance can be rare.
Dimitri MdP and MagicMarker like this.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2019, 08:31 AM   #10
Jr. Sniper
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 404
Hell people can sometimes get pounded by BBs and feels absolutely nothing with gear, and sometimes with the adrenaline pumpin' they can be hit in the nads and still not feel the shot well enough.
MagicMarker and Zero Roaster like this.
__________________
My loadout:

-Main: Ares Amoeba AS02
- Inner Barrel: Maple Leaf Crazy Jet 310mm 6.04 barrel
- Hop-up bucking: Maple Leaf MR. HOP 60 Degrees
- Spring: Custom
- Cylinder: Edgi Nemo cylinder kit
- Chamber: Action Army blue chamber
- Spring Guide: Edgi Nemo cylinder kit
- Piston: Edgi Nemo cylinder kit
- Scope: Discovery 3-12*42

-Sub: Tokyo Marui 5.1 Hi-Capa
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2019, 10:56 AM   #11
Advanced Sniper
 
MagicMarker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Washington
Posts: 561
^ It's this sort of thing that is always swift to remind me why I'll never stray too far from the sneaky or long-range roles. High-octane is where hits don't get felt and cheating is easier- and the game completely unravels.

I was once one of the last alive covering the enemy VIP's exit point, ghillied with my suppressed MK23. No one knew where I was yet, and when the VIP tried sprinting across a bunch of open field - literally right next to me, maybe 10 feet tops - I must have shot him five times before immediately changing focus to other enemies in the area; at which point, the guy I completely lit up started shooting me from behind... He wasn't cheating either, I'm confident he just didn't realize he'd been shot. But my god what a bad taste that left in my mouth. In fact in the moment, I was quite annoyed - my super neato badass moment of single-handedly stopping the enemy from winning was being snubbed - so I actually ignored the guy shooting and shrugged it off with "already shot you man.." However in moments after, with enemies thinking they'd won the game, I just gave up. Went to apologize to the guy for calling other peoples' hits - it's not right - and he was extremely friendly about it- which is why I'm so confident he didn't intentionally cheat.
It really put a rain cloud over that certain type of airsoft game-play for me. Luckily I've always preferred eliminating players when they least expect it, which will always be possible through stealth and distance!
Zero Roaster likes this.
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2019, 12:17 PM   #12
wyz2285   wyz2285 is offline
Jr. Sniper
 
wyz2285's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Portugal
Posts: 231
Once in my country where Joule limit is 1,3J, a sniper challenge was organized. Initially the furthest target was at 90 meters (or 100m can't remember) but people who claim they can shoot 120, 150 meters keep popping up so they ended up increase the furthest target to 150 meters. By the end of the tournament, the furthest shot was at 67~ meters, one hit out of 5, the BB hit the dummies leg, Lol.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2019, 12:32 PM   #13
Experienced Sniper
 
Zero Roaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,562
Ah yes...adrenaline...and what a drug that is! I've been lit in the face on full auto at 20-ish feet by someone who was hit but just kept right on rushing. What do you with that? Sure I got a black eye (and I was still wearing eye pro) and my face got a little 'swiss cheesed', but after the fact, what do you do? Needless to say, I had a bit of a blood boiling moment after, but being an old dog and having worked in both dangerous and hostile environments, I knew why he was a complete (insert expletive of choice here), and I left the game early to clean up the holes.

This is where I'm very happy the game is limited for power. Had field limits been a little hotter, I could have lost some pieces of face there. My eye pro worked, but the BB's rattle between my nose and the edge of the goggles which is how I got the shiner.

So, like you, Mr Marker, I now sit in the shadows working the long range of the rifle as much as I possibly can. If the action gets close, I back out. Live to fight another day, right?
MagicMarker likes this.
__________________
...and nary a whisper was heard..
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2019, 02:22 PM   #14
Experienced Sniper
 
Dimitri MdP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Mar del Plata, Argentina
Posts: 1,435
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenshouYoku View Post
Hell people can sometimes get pounded by BBs and feels absolutely nothing with gear, and sometimes with the adrenaline pumpin' they can be hit in the nads and still not feel the shot well enough.
Sometimes people get shot with real bullets and don't feel it until several seconds later. Adrenaline is one hell of a drug. So I'm not surprised when players don't feel a bb, specially on long-distance shots where the bb has lost a lot of their initial energy.

But more importantly, I find that they don't recognise "whatever just might have tapped them" as a bb hit when they're not expecting to get shot at.

And this is another limitation to our effective range in the game. Hitting people from ridiculous lengths means they don't expect a hit, so it's less likely that they'll consciously process it as such.

I had people claim that my SVD GBBR "hits too hard" when it's actually about 1J lower than most VSRs around here (and yes, that's measured when shooting the same .45g bbs). But that SVD is the loudest gun on any game, while any VSR is dead silent at 50+ metres.

So letting them know they're being shot at seems to greatly increase the chance of them "feeling" it. That's the main reason I go with "the loudest sniper I can be", pretty much au contraire of the sneaky profile most aim for.


Now to get this back on the main track, as I said before I believe the 100m mark is still the grail because of bb limitations and we humans just loving round numbers, but the actual effective range, understood as "distance I can expect to eliminate players from" is about 70 metres, with the people capacity to recognise the hit as one of the many factors (others being their ability to dodge it, wind and atmospheric conditions, or own shooting positions being far from the ideal testing ones, etc)

-------
Zero Roaster likes this.

Last edited by Dimitri MdP; 10-30-2019 at 02:25 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2019, 06:44 PM   #15
Advanced Sniper
 
MagicMarker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Washington
Posts: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimitri MdP View Post
letting them know they're being shot at seems to greatly increase the chance of them "feeling" it
It's oddly true. I remember seeing a video where the player - I think Nov's friend Fabi - said they don't normally like using their MK23 because of the "confusion" it causes on the field, regarding players not noticing hits due to the sound. I initially thought this was so strange; then probably within a month I had a game where I was hidden, maybe 20 feet from someone, pelting them repeatedly [with my MK] as they kept nonchalantly scooting further into cover (but I had almost a full view)- they took a downright absurd number of hits, but because they thought the shots were coming from far away, they were just spray or the shooter wouldn't notice or something (they finally called it by the way- almost a full magazine). This was of course a case of blatant cheating, but surely quiet shots also reduce the chance someone genuinely noticing hits, as well.
Zero Roaster likes this.
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:08 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.