Chassis built for the Wolverine Bolt [and other engines]: What should it look like? - Airsoft Sniper Forum
       

Go Back   Airsoft Sniper Forum > General > General Sniper Talk
General Sniper Talk Dedicated to any and all sniper-related discussions

Like Tree39Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 11-04-2019, 12:26 PM   #1
Advanced Sniper
 
MagicMarker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Washington
Posts: 561
Question Chassis built for the Wolverine Bolt [and other engines]: What should it look like?

Wolverine (sorry, forgot the two guys' actual names...) responded during a stream to my suggestion about a chassis built specifically for HPA users with "maybe". This gives me far more hope than it probably should.

I believe there's a market for it though- all of the following seem realistically possible with even less involvement than their MTW, and appealing to a sufficiently wide demographic: Support for Bolt / Bolt M / SDIK, realistic magazine placement, uses existing market magazines, modular grip and stock.

Here's what I have in mind when I think of the exact products I would pay an absurd amount of money for which are not currently on the market:
  • A Chassis which uses realistic magazine placement, VSR compatible anywhere possible (receiver, trigger mechanism, trigger guard) but uses more realistic/attractive magazines such as Ares Striker magazines; this would also require selling a shorter cylinder for proper magazine placement
  • A stock which holds HPA tanks (a simple adjustable clamp/strap of some sort would allow for sizes from ~8-11CI without restricting to specific tank regulator heights, etc.)- this specific part would be big I think, making this platform the only option on the market designed to support HPA builds without a line attached to your body(!) (I can vouch for at least a reasonable amount of interest- basically 100% of games I go to, someone is amazed that my rifle is HPA with the tank in the stock)
I think the primary roadblocks are:
  • The VSR-compatibility regarding the receiver and outer barrel for realistic magazine placement- but Wolverine already required drilling a couple holes when the Bolt first released, so I don't think that's huge
  • The length of the shorter cylinder regarding fitting the engine - due to length - but hopefully this is not a problem...

So what are your thoughts on this in general? Maybe it would make more sense to just make this Amoeba-compatible instead, or Amoeba/VSR in specific ways? What would you want to see in a product like this?
whalesmash, bertha and AccurateDMD like this.
__________________

Last edited by MagicMarker; 11-04-2019 at 12:33 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Remove Ads
Old 11-04-2019, 01:48 PM   #2
Advanced Sniper
 
whalesmash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Southern California
Posts: 817
Ramble ahead, you've been warned...

I've been tossing around the idea of designing my own chassis that actually has all of those features listed, but each time I decide on one aspect, I end up blocking myself out of another. I won't get into the details, but trying to wrap my head around how to house even the thinnest and slimmest of HPA tanks without compromising the aesthetics of a rifle has me rolling in headaches. I've been trying to come up with something like the M7 SMG I made where it's functionally a bullpup, but handles like a normal rifle, but doing that with a bolt action system, factoring in an airtank or quick change co2 system... yeah, it's been roadblocks all over the place...

That being said, I do think some of the things listed are a bit redundant. VSR compatible trigger bits is kind of a plus, but considering how low stress the internals are, it's really not that critical. I'd even argue that VSR bucking compatible is not that necessary either, considering how the SRS can achieve VSR level performance with a normal AEG bucking. (let's not get into the vsr vs srs debate for the thousandth time though).

Personally the things that would most appeal to me is having proper magazine placement, and then having the tank in the stock in a non-intrusive manner. Something with the aesthetics of a the action army T-10 with a tank-in-stock and proper magazine placement would fit the bill really well. Considering the Ares striker is pretty much on it's way to having both the mancraft and bolt-m systems available to it, transplanting that system into a stock that has a tank-in-stock system wouldn't be too outrageous to do. My only complaint with the striker and most VSRs in general is that the aesthetics are so incredibly boring that I never want another one.

The one thing I absolutely do NOT want to see though, is an AR styled buffertube or any other stock that runs on top of the trigger hand. Having handled bullpup sniper rifles and pistol grip style sniper rifles, the biggest thing that irked me with each of those platforms was how you had to peel your thumb around the grip in order to work the bolt. With a traditional hunter style stock, it's way easier and faster you just bring the trigger hand directly up and grab the bolt. No stock tube or gun body to get in the way...
__________________
Ares Tinkerer (MCM700x, WA2000, MS338/MS700)

Mancraft Hoarder (SDIK, PDIKv2, PDIKv3)

HPA everything! (P*Jack, Gen 2 Inferno, Gen 2 Hydra, Fusion Engine, Reaper)

Questions about any of the above, feel free to ask!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 02:07 PM   #3
Masada   Masada is offline
Jr. Sniper
 
Masada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 177
I've considered doing something like this. I really don't think it would be too difficult, but I always get stuck at the HPA aspect. I've realized that I really don't like dealing with the added complexity of HPA over a simple spring mechanism, and the light bolt pull isn't enough of a benefit to justify it for me.

The only benefit I see of the realistic mag placement would be to use real stocks, which would be cool. As I get older though the concept of a perfect replica of a gun I can just go buy is diminishing pretty quickly. I'd rather have a system that gives performance advantages over "realism".
  Reply With Quote
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 11-04-2019, 03:24 PM   #4
Advanced Sniper
 
MagicMarker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Washington
Posts: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by whalesmash View Post
trying to wrap my head around how to house even the thinnest and slimmest of HPA tanks without compromising the aesthetics of a rifle has me rolling in headaches.
[...]
That being said, I do think some of the things listed are a bit redundant. VSR compatible trigger bits is kind of a plus, but considering how low stress the internals are, it's really not that critical. I'd even argue that VSR bucking compatible is not that necessary either, considering how the SRS can achieve VSR level performance with a normal AEG bucking. (let's not get into the vsr vs srs debate for the thousandth time though).
[...]
My only complaint with the striker and most VSRs in general is that the aesthetics are so incredibly boring that I never want another one.
[...]
The one thing I absolutely do NOT want to see though, is an AR styled buffertube or any other stock that runs on top of the trigger hand. Having handled bullpup sniper rifles and pistol grip style sniper rifles, the biggest thing that irked me with each of those platforms was how you had to peel your thumb around the grip in order to work the bolt. With a traditional hunter style stock, it's way easier and faster you just bring the trigger hand directly up and grab the bolt. No stock tube or gun body to get in the way...
I'll have to take a better look at my 11CI (standard "smallest" tank on the market) tank when I get home, but I was under the impression it wouldn't be too big filling in as a stock, with efficient use of space.
Well I figure the most reasonable way to get a product like this on the market would be to use existing parts wherever possible, so 'VSR' just seems the obvious choice for trigger mechanisms/etc. But why not VSR bucking, specifically? That seemed like a given to me- I'm not aware of any benefits using another bucking type.
I agree PROFUSELY about boring rifles. This is a big reason I want something like this. I want a rifle that truly looks as badass as I have it performing- something like this:

That last point you make...that really hits me out of left field actually; I've been using 'traditional hunter style' rifles for my whole life and only noticed one thing about them: "my wrist fcking hurts"- the need for a pistol grip style is my primary motivation...however now I'm concerned I'll realize what you have. I'll be honest though, I kind of doubt it. I'm not the type to worry about shooting fast with a bolt action- I like the nature of the platform being 'slow deliberate individual shots', and I suspect I'd be fine with the stock attaching to the chassis over the top. Definitely going to give that some more thought though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Masada View Post
I've realized that I really don't like dealing with the added complexity of HPA over a simple spring mechanism
Hah! So funny- from my perspective, springers introduce added complexity over HPA :P Guess it just depends on what you're comfortable with.
__________________

Last edited by MagicMarker; 11-04-2019 at 03:28 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 04:08 PM   #5
Advanced Sniper
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 939
I think a skeletonized style stock would be the best route to take with a build like this. Something with M Lok handguards and a picatinny rail up top.

Keeping weight low would be paramount in an HPA set up and the skeletonized stock would lend itself well to different sized tanks.

As far as VSR compatibility if you can use an AA chamber and VSR rubber I'd be happy. I'd also point out that a VSR system would be preferred over SRS due to the backpressure build up you can get with VSR systems being much more dramatic. This could potentially increase the efficiency of the HPA system.

I personally couldn't care less about magazine placement being realistic, but if it's possible then sure, go for it. Of course, I've never understood the super into it milsim crowd, as if I want to do that, I'm going to go take an actual training course with Haley or similar. It's just BB warz to me.

The line has been the major hold up from me trying HPA to be honest. I have an L96 I'd love to convert but the hassle of dealing with the tank or modifying the stock always makes me reconsider.
terryna likes this.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 04:40 PM   #6
Advanced Sniper
 
whalesmash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Southern California
Posts: 817
Quote:
Originally Posted by MagicMarker View Post
I'll have to take a better look at my 11CI (standard "smallest" tank on the market) tank when I get home, but I was under the impression it wouldn't be too big filling in as a stock, with efficient use of space.
Well I figure the most reasonable way to get a product like this on the market would be to use existing parts wherever possible, so 'VSR' just seems the obvious choice for trigger mechanisms/etc. But why not VSR bucking, specifically? That seemed like a given to me- I'm not aware of any benefits using another bucking type.
[snip]
That last point you make...that really hits me out of left field actually; I've been using 'traditional hunter style' rifles for my whole life and only noticed one thing about them: "my wrist fcking hurts"- the need for a pistol grip style is my primary motivation...however now I'm concerned I'll realize what you have. I'll be honest though, I kind of doubt it. I'm not the type to worry about shooting fast with a bolt action- I like the nature of the platform being 'slow deliberate individual shots', and I suspect I'd be fine with the stock attaching to the chassis over the top. Definitely going to give that some more thought though...
[snip]
An 11ci isn't hard to fit, it's just challenging from a design standpoint for me since I'm trying to fit it into... say, a 3D asset I pull out of a game. I have to consider accessibility in the event that the tank needs to be removed, as well as structural and durability stuff.

As far as VSR bucking, I didn't mean that as in don't use a VSR bucking, I'm just saying that it's not a deal breaker if it does use a standard aeg bucking. Ideally, yes, I would vote for a VSR bucking since it's more drop-in ready, but not the end of the world if it doesn't.

Traditional hunter style stocks are pretty nasty on the wrist, I'd agree, but there's some rifles out there that have a much more vertical grip while still maintaining the rifle stock. The TRG42 and the M40A5 are good examples of this. Having handled both, they are very very comfortable while also maintaining the ease of access to the bolt.

It's not so much speed of racking the bolt for me as it is a pain in the arse to peel my thumb around a pistol grip. It basically adds motion to racking the bolt where you have to physically come off the grip before moving up/forward to the bolt, rather than just going straight up to the bolt. Even bullpups don't have this issue quite as bad, as the motion of coming backwards to the bolt is already bringing your hand away from the grip. Don't get me wrong, if I never had to work the bolt, I'd go pistol grip nearly all the time, but having dealt with it while I owned my MSR for some two, three years, it got annoying. I'll will agree though, this is probably more a personal taste sort of thing.
__________________
Ares Tinkerer (MCM700x, WA2000, MS338/MS700)

Mancraft Hoarder (SDIK, PDIKv2, PDIKv3)

HPA everything! (P*Jack, Gen 2 Inferno, Gen 2 Hydra, Fusion Engine, Reaper)

Questions about any of the above, feel free to ask!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 05:36 PM   #7
cetane   cetane is offline
Jr. Sniper
 
cetane's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Markham & Stouffville, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 449
What I have thought of for a gas supply system, is using propane, with necessary expansion chambers and regulation stages to keep it stable. But using a fat bull barrel that will be the gas chamber. Either have an inner barrel sleeve so the actual inner barrel doesn’t touch gas, or then just O-Ring seal the actual inner barrel to seal the gas off between it and the outer barrel. Have a gas tap with a syphon tube to keep liquid out of the gas expansion chamber as much as possible. I’m tempted to build something like that into my propane powered reaper sr25 back burner project.
MagicMarker likes this.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 01:55 PM   #8
Advanced Sniper
 
MagicMarker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Washington
Posts: 561
Quote:
Originally Posted by AccurateDMD View Post
As far as VSR compatibility if you can use an AA chamber and VSR rubber I'd be happy. I'd also point out that a VSR system would be preferred over SRS due to the backpressure build up you can get with VSR systems being much more dramatic. This could potentially increase the efficiency of the HPA system.

I personally couldn't care less about magazine placement being realistic, but if it's possible then sure, go for it. Of course, I've never understood the super into it milsim crowd, as if I want to do that, I'm going to go take an actual training course with Haley or similar. It's just BB warz to me.

The line has been the major hold up from me trying HPA to be honest. I have an L96 I'd love to convert but the hassle of dealing with the tank or modifying the stock always makes me reconsider.
Can you elaborate on what you're referring to with 'back pressure' and the different systems, and efficiency, etc.? Not sure I follow.
I actually totally agree with you and my first priority will always be performance, however close behind, I like my aesthetics :P not necessarily military simulation, just "looks good"- and here's the thing, I think rifles look good with magazines visible, but there is NOTHING worse than a fake magazine with a real magazine hidden somewhere else, lol. Just my opinion (looking at you, Akura Tactical)!
That last point I totally resonate with, as do I think a lot of people. I was lucky enough to find a tiny HPA tank, but even then it took some hard work to get it integrated into the BAR-10 stock (which I don't like the grip on at all). I think a product like this could really tip the scales for people who would have already tried HPA but simply didn't want a line attached to their body.

Quote:
Originally Posted by whalesmash View Post
Traditional hunter style stocks are pretty nasty on the wrist, I'd agree, but there's some rifles out there that have a much more vertical grip while still maintaining the rifle stock. The TRG42 and the M40A5 are good examples of this. Having handled both, they are very very comfortable while also maintaining the ease of access to the bolt.
Right, and the AAC T-10 and Amoeba Striker- to a slightly lesser extent. I almost bought an M40A5 body for the grip, but the weight was off-putting and the real issue was the logistics of cutting the stock out for my tank. Anyway this might be a very apt suggestion- potentially the most comfortable and functional grip method, with the added benefit of providing maximum space directly behind the bolt for the tank/reg. Down-sides would be less customization for the chassis, and potentially slightly increased cost over simply producing a grip-less chassis. HOWEVER, maybe a best-of-both-worlds solution: The chassis itself accepts pistol grips, but Wolverine will also produce the stock designed to hold HPA tanks in a stock/grip combo format as you describe. The chassis itself could have a subtle built in fixture which accepts an adapter for buffer tubes. You would have two options:
1) Buy the chassis and HPA tank stock/grip combo [if you want the tank on the rifle]
2) Buy the chassis and buffer tube adapter [if you're fine running lines off the rifle]
whalesmash likes this.
__________________

Last edited by MagicMarker; 11-05-2019 at 03:26 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 02:17 PM   #9
Advanced Sniper
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 939
I'm referring to the increase in FPS with an increase in Hop applied. Many have speculated it's due to the VSR style buckings 'holding' onto the bb longer and creating backpressure.

On my build I can get some pretty dramatic swings in Joules just by changing the amount of hop applied.
MagicMarker and terryna like this.
  Reply With Quote
Members that say thanks to AccurateDMD for this post: MagicMarker
Old 11-07-2019, 03:41 AM   #10
 
Plazmaburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 3,489
Send a message via Skype™ to Plazmaburn
Lol. If only you guys could see my design journal. Your minds would likely melt. Too bad I'm not going to post any of it. Too many great ideas in those journals.

I doubt there are all that many people that would shell out for any of that though. Plus i know 90% of you guys are complete cheapos and likely not be interested in any of it.
Jbrinker1 likes this.
__________________
Don't underestimate me. I know more than I say, think more than I speak, and notice more than you realize.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2019, 08:28 AM   #11
Jr. Sniper
 
Blind Sniper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: PA, US
Posts: 327
I think the stock should BE a tank. Like it’s own tank. Make it a little wider (if you mount a tank in the stock it would protrude). But think about the Marui stock, remove the butt pad, there’s a decent volume in there if it was sealed off and made of aluminum or carbon fiber. Have a stock a little wider as a tank and have the regulator thread on somewhere.

*edit* could even be pretty much like a paintball marker. But be a vsr or whatever platform with the BOLT in it.

I agree with plasma though, most people are cheap. Everyone wants super cool badass airsoft guns and gear until it’s time to shell out some dough. Then they are a cheap ass.
__________________
YouTube.com/BlindSniper

Last edited by Blind Sniper; 11-07-2019 at 10:09 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2019, 10:54 AM   #12
Advanced Sniper
 
MagicMarker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: Washington
Posts: 561
Pff, I'm ready to pay an absolutely irresponsible quantity of money for this- don't underestimate my ability to rationalize quadruple my desired 'budget' as "preventative medical care" (for that improved wrist positioning!)
I can see your point though. I will say however, that the accessibility of this product should be significantly aided by the fact that it would only be a stock/grip/chassis/bolt, with no receiver, outer barrel, or any internals- so I'm not sure the cost would have to be all that high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plazmaburn View Post
Lol. If only you guys could see my design journal. Your minds would likely melt. Too bad I'm not going to post any of it. Too many great ideas in those journals.
You have my number- I patiently await your contact ;P
Honestly though, with how much I'm willing to spend alongside the fact that Wolverine would probably build this specifically for 11CI tanks and their Storm regulator, meaning it potentially wouldn't be my exact dream...I should probably just get some CAD up and make this a reality myself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Sniper View Post
I think the stock should BE a tank. Like itís own tank. Make it a little wider (if you mount a tank in the stock it would protrude). But think about the Marui stock, remove the butt pad, thereís a decent volume in there if it was sealed off and made of aluminum or carbon fiber. Have a stock a little wider as a tank and have the regulator thread on somewhere.

*edit* could even be pretty much like a paintball marker. But be a vsr or whatever platform with the BOLT in it.
I've honestly wondered why this hasn't happened yet- I wonder if it's too prohibitively expensive.
__________________
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2019, 11:24 AM   #13
Advanced Sniper
 
whalesmash's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Southern California
Posts: 817
There's probably no tank-stock because there's structural requirements for containing that kind of air pressure. There's a bunch of science behind why things like soda cans are shaped the way they are, and it's the same reason why air tanks are shaped a very similar manner. The TLDR is basically it's the most structurally sound while also providing the largest amount of volume and using the least amount of materials. (Youtube soda can design if you're curious, it's pretty interesting)
MagicMarker likes this.
__________________
Ares Tinkerer (MCM700x, WA2000, MS338/MS700)

Mancraft Hoarder (SDIK, PDIKv2, PDIKv3)

HPA everything! (P*Jack, Gen 2 Inferno, Gen 2 Hydra, Fusion Engine, Reaper)

Questions about any of the above, feel free to ask!
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2019, 04:34 PM   #14
Jr. Sniper
 
Blind Sniper's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: PA, US
Posts: 327
Paintball marker style vsr-10 it is!!
__________________
YouTube.com/BlindSniper
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2019, 01:17 AM   #15
 
Plazmaburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: San Antonio, TX
Posts: 3,489
Send a message via Skype™ to Plazmaburn
Most of what i made up was entire rifles. Though mine are more Tanaka-esqe in design. Some of them are based after actual rifles, others around application.

While i do have a stock duplicator, its currently in pieces as my choices in wood are nowhere near dry enough. Probably another 6 months before those are ready.

Of course none of this will matter until i get unrestricted access to a lathe and mill. Prototype, perfect, produce.
MagicMarker likes this.
__________________
Don't underestimate me. I know more than I say, think more than I speak, and notice more than you realize.
  Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:06 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.