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Old 08-06-2020, 04:25 PM   #1
1tonne   1tonne is offline
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There is no advantage with R-hop or Maple Leaf

Time for people to rethink what about long nubs. Are standard buckings just as good?

When I first started airsoft, I used standard buckings, then eventually I made an R-Hop and I thought to myself that it was more accurate and gave longer range. But I now believe that this was just a psychological thing where you put something new into your rifle it works and makes you feel positive. So you naturally think that it is giving you more accuracy and range.
Now after many years of using Maple Leaf and R-hop, I now believe that they are just as accurate as a standard bucking and that they do not give more range with a standard setup rifle.

The only time when a long nub is useful is when we use a very uncommon setup with extra heavy bb's and low fps. So for example, a 350fps AEG and using 0.4gm bb's. The low fps AEG, if it has a standard bucking, may not create the backspin needed to fling the heavy weight bb. In this instance, a long nub will help create more backspin to help lift the heavy bb. But if the person then decides to use a normal bb weight for the 350fps rifle with the long nub, as most people do (0.25-0.3gm), they will find that there is no advantage. So same accuracy and same range. The only advantage is when using extra heavy weight bb's. These heavy weight bb's do have a straighter trajectory. But who uses a 0.4gm in a 350fps AEG? Not many people. I know some may. But not many

You can also make a low fps rifle shoot heavy weight bb's with a standard bucking by simply creating a pressure spike. So no need for a long nub. This is often done by using a shorter barrel and a bigger spring. The bigger spring pushes the bb past the nub at such a speed that it creates a lot of backspin. This is also what can happen with a lot of gas guns and so many people do it in Mk1 or Mk23 pistols.

Now this is a sniper forum and most of us here are using higher joules than most rifles. These higher joule rifles have big springs and they create big pressure spikes. So most of us do not need a long nub. I mean, anyone who has a rifle that is firing 2.7 joules should be able to fling a 0.48gm bb (Unless you inner barrel is too long). So why do we decide to pay more and get a bucking with a long nub? There is no need. Why put in the extra time to make an R-hop when there is no need? (Unless using ceramic extra heavy bb's).

Personally, I am no longer recommending R-hop or Maple Leaf in most instances as they are not needed. They are overkill and do not improve the performance of most setups.
Anyone else feel the same?
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Old 08-06-2020, 04:37 PM   #2
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I still use 9Balls in my VSR's and only r-hop my 0.69 guns. I dissuade the use of r-hops in pretty much anything else.

AEG/HPA, I am still a prommy purple kinda guy.


Right there with ya.
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Old 08-06-2020, 04:39 PM   #3
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I am a firm believer that there is no advantage or disadvantage when using maple leaf vs r hop. No offense to the guys who swear by rhop; but when you talk about pre cut patches some say they “aren’t as good” as a custom made one. Hey I support that if it makes you happy. But I REALLY think that people swear by r hop because they put SO much time into a patch and just want it to pay off lol. In the end this is my opinion and I’m all about whatever works for you. However, I will forever and always share this demonstration I made;

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Old 08-06-2020, 05:12 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Sniper View Post
I am a firm believer that there is no advantage or disadvantage when using maple leaf vs r hop.
I agree. There is no advantage over Maple Leaf with R-Hop. But I also say that there is no advantage over a standard bucking either unless you are using extra heavy weight bb's in a system that is really meant for lighter bb's.
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Old 08-06-2020, 06:22 PM   #5
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Yea I can agree there too. I had a Pdi w hold setup with an airsoft pro hop arm, as well as a Nineball bucking with dangerwerx arm. All were accurate for me.

It comes down the the key things mentioned on here before; good barrel finish, good air seal and a stable barrel with good ammo. I do think that certain hop parts work well together based off how the hop mound is designed.

Only think I can see that maple leaf buckings ACTUALLY help with is since the contact patch goes to a point, it could guide it before it goes down the barrel. If that makes sense. I could just be blabbering on here.
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Old 08-06-2020, 06:57 PM   #6
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So then what is the thought with the Silverback buckings? It uses the protrusion into the window of the barrel to create the backspin. I have been trying to keep to just that instead of spending huge amounts of money on parts that aren't needed.
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Old 08-06-2020, 07:55 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Myzur View Post
So then what is the thought with the Silverback buckings? It uses the protrusion into the window of the barrel to create the backspin. I have been trying to keep to just that instead of spending huge amounts of money on parts that aren't needed.
That is literally every modern bucking. Something presses over it to protrude into the window for when the bb passes it.
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Old 08-06-2020, 10:21 PM   #8
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The reason I believe r-hops/maple leaf buckings are more accurate is because less pressure on the bb = less scratching/deformation. Same reason .43 ceramics are more accurate than .43 plastics.
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Old 08-06-2020, 11:14 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Sodium View Post
The reason I believe r-hops/maple leaf buckings are more accurate is because less pressure on the bb = less scratching/deformation
I don't believe putting more pressure on the bb would scratch the inner barrel or deform the bb. One argument that people have used for longer nubs is that it the longer nub needs less downforce and so there is less vibration as the bb goes through the barrel. The issue with this theory is that the bb stabilizes very fast no matter what nub is used. So by the time the bb exits the bb is stable with both a stock nub and a long nub. There are plenty of examples at most fields where a gun has a very short inner barrel but is very accurate. This is because the bb stabilizes over a very, very short distance. So in both instances, the bb should be about as stable as each other.

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Same reason .43 ceramics are more accurate than .43 plastics.
Deformation is not really the major difference between the 2 different materials. I doubt that the plastic bb's deform much at all. If any (maybe really small but it would be that small that it would not effect).
The main difference is consistency. Ceramics are consistent. Plastic bb's can have heavy and light spots throughout them while the ceramic bb's have an even weight throughout. Also ceramics are also perfectly round while plastic bb's are not perfectly round.
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Old 08-07-2020, 01:43 AM   #10
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I think there is merit to both ML/Rhop, but it's in an application that's pretty specific to the type of hop up nub that's used. Simply put, with the right nub, it's possible to apply pressure onto the rhop/ML bucking that forces the BB into the same spot of the patch in an extremely consistent manner. This really only works with BB's at or above 0.28g and only shows advantages in platforms with inconsistent loading force (IE first generation open bolt HPA systems) or platforms with excessive loading force (gen 1 wolverine reaper/AEG's that for some reason have a super heavy tappet plate spring). It's also sometimes helpful to have this sort of setup in a high ROF build. That said, these points are pretty much moot for any bolt gun since the loading force is light and the cycle speed is slow.
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Old 08-07-2020, 03:37 AM   #11
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With a standard nub, the bb should rub past the lowest point of the mound each shot making them extremely consistent too. This is the same with every bb weight.
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Old 08-07-2020, 04:56 AM   #12
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I always see very significant improvement in grouping size when I change a stock bucking to a maple leaf bucking (in AEGs) and slight increase in energy. But then again I never used a prommy purple as it's twice as expensive as a maple bucking.
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Old 08-07-2020, 05:35 AM   #13
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I've been using Prometheus Purple rubbers on my AEGs for about 3 years, just recently moved to Maple Leaf.

The difference is noticeable.
Solely the fact that I can hop 0.3g+ bbs without shoving half the rubber down the barrel (and losing a fuckton of energy) makes it worth it. Switching from 0.3s to 0.4s in my ARP only involves 2/3 clicks of the hop dial.

My M4 is still running on Prometheus Purples, it's an Ares and their hop chambers have an arm with an integrated tensioner that I can't be arsed to drill out. I also only fire 0.25s out of that thing so having a "better" hop system is a waste of money and time. It does fire consistently with little energy deviation and the groupings are more than acceptable for being 0.25g BBs fired at 0.85J, range is nice at just shy of 55 metres.

This at 1J, where 1tonne said a R-Hop/ML will have the most impact.
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Old 08-07-2020, 05:44 AM   #14
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Interestingly I've seen people claiming maple leaf AEG rubbers are terrible, ranging from ripping in a few shots or have terrible deviation.

In my personal experience (at least the super Macaron) they are decent.
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Old 08-07-2020, 06:30 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenshouYoku View Post
Interestingly I've seen people claiming maple leaf AEG rubbers are terrible, ranging from ripping in a few shots or have terrible deviation.

In my personal experience (at least the super Macaron) they are decent.
They must have messed something up during installation.

I did rip a MR-Hop when installing it in my AK, but that's because I'm a troglodyte, messed up the reassembly and ended up hammering the inner barrel in place.

Took it all apart, replaced the rubber (thank god I bought 5 spare ones), reassembled the proper way, and now it's perfect. It even upped my output (0.1J not much but still nice to have)..

Maple Leaf did have issues with some batches of their rubbers though, specifically the GBB/VSR Autobots, don't know if other models had the same issues tho.
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