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Old 09-12-2019, 09:32 AM   #1
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The place to talk about R hops is at the bar...

Sure, let's take this to the lounge as it may involve more drunken philosophy than actual science..or maybe not. In any case, more good ideas are borne from sketches on a beer stained napkin than any clean boardroom.

So, let's address this r hop business, shall we? First of all, yes, I am a disciple of the r hop. I've studied it extensively for years now and employ nothing else in my rifles. Yes, I make my own. Yes, I use alternative materials bought in bulk, yes, I change the shape of the barrel window, yes, yes, yes, and yes...all of the above. I've r hopped everything from pistols to bolt guns now. Eventually, if it's at my house, it gets the r hop. Why? BECAUSE IT WORKS.

Now, alot of folks are seeking the Grail. A quick factory made r hop that comes in a baggie, installs in five minutes, and requires no real adjustment other than the hop arm. Forget it. Not going to happen, ever. I tore into my Thompson last night (again), yes, even that gets hot rodded. But here's the deal...I changed the shape of the barrel window. I'm using a 6.02mm stainless Deep Fire that's been buffed into the next dimension and the silicone tubing is really, really supple. Why do this? Because I can.

So here's the rub...it's not just an r hop. It's changing the behaviour of the barrel, the nub design, the angle of the nub as it hits the hop patch, etc, etc,etc.. it becomes more of a hop up system than merely an r hop patch.

When I see someone not get amazing results from an r hop, I know immediately it wasn't done right. How do I know? Because if you do it correctly the gun really, really, really goes! I had a Maple Leaf in the Thompson until now. I needed the gun to work but didn't really have time to fool with it. Now that the daylight is getting shorter and the temps are falling, I have some bench time. For example, last night all I did was cut the patch, install it and shape it along with getting the ideal window dimension and angle, and install the bucking. That was three hours. That's meticulously making sure the alignment of the patch is perfect. That the BB is centering in the barrel both with no hop on, and with the hop applied (I have a jig for doing this). I also have a giant magnifying glass that lights up to check for perfect adhesion to the barrel edges as well as making sure all transitional surfaces are perfectly smooth. Then I run a 6mm plug gauge down it to check for protrusions, etc. It has to be PERFECT...and I mean PERFECT.

Tonight I'll be fitting the barrel into the hop unit (maybe if time permits). Again, checking alignment, pressure, etc. That will be a whole evening. Then we'll fit the nub and arm another night...point is, it takes a LONG time to get this just right to the point of ridiculous performance. It takes precision, and a pile of patience, and NO, it is NOT cost effective and there's no way of doing it commercially or cheaply to ensure a decent profit and still make it affordable. This is building a Bugatti...

So why waste all this time? Why not? Getting an ususpecting piece (like a plastico King Arms M1A1) to shoot the begeezez out of most commercially modified bolt guns is a real rush. It doesn't take a lot of horsepower either...it just takes maximum efficiency of the air provided by the gearbox. The gun shoots 385fps. That's plenty...you just need to harness all of it.

In our case we're not looking to change the world, build an empire like Nov, or even get on YouTube...it's just about building a little awesomeness...and the r hop IS the way to go, no doubt about it...but you have to do it absolutely right.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:45 AM   #2
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I'm still gonna stick with the Maple Leafs.

You may be the only person getting these to shoot 'right', because I've never seen one definitively outperform another well built rifle with a good hop up. They always end up objectively equal.

Perhaps you should post a detailed tutorial.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:07 PM   #3
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Meh...No one wants to read the rantings of an old fool....much less a physics nerd. Same thing, fool=physicist.

Now, just because you haven't encountered it yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist. :) There are lots of people out there outperforming the Maple Leaf with all kinds of doo dads, but many just do it without notoriety. I most certainly would never document nor publish my findings on it. It's a little physics puzzle, if you will...and mechanical too. The math is a portion of it, but the craft work has to be there as well. You're a dentist, you get it, right? As well as study, you have to be able to do the work. Well, building a fine little machine is no different. Be it little planes, guitars, 1/4 mile dragsters, 40 ton haulers, or an airsoft rifle.

See, the world is designed to be average, not exceptional. We have in physics what's called 'acceptable or engineered losses'. This accounts for variances of all kinds. Operational windows (pressure, altitude, etc), materials from batch to batch, and even whether it's built on a Monday or a Wednesday. There is A LOT of slop in a QC program even though all the units pass. Exceptional doesn't have to be 110 percent..no sir, exceptional is 80 percent and above. After all, that's all it takes to make the honor roll. hehehehe.

So let's get really bent in the head and aim for 90 percent...well, now you're cooking with av gas! There's still the odd speck of dust in there, and yeah maybe the grouping could be tighter, but making something better than average is easy. Really easy. It doesn't even have to be perfect! It just has to be better.

So, let's QC a manufactured bucking. They sell it for what? 10 bucks? That is dirt cheap. So, R&D costs, manufacturing, shipping, retail distribution, etc, well, that bucking is really only about 75 cents. hahahaha. It performs decent. But certainly not exceptional. So why are the r hops the same then? Because to be cost effective on most peoples' scales (be it time or cash), you will not get the maximum out of the system that it is capable of. Impossible. Art only happens when you throw away the cheque book...look at the moon missions, or Led Zeppelin IV, there's no price for those kinds of results.

Ok, so my R hops are probably not Apollo awesome, but certainly better than average, sure, 90 percent. Am I happy yet? No. I'm sure I can still do better. I haven't maxed it all out yet. I'm still fooling with materials, shapes, base systems (inner barrels, etc). Even trying it on a stock Combat Machine aluminum barrel...sure, why not? It's science...

The only reason I can keep doing this is because it's not commercial in any way. I stop the clock, and don't count waste or failures, just the successes. Every time I roll it up a level, it keeps the fire going, y'know? Best part is that the only real critic is me. The phone isn't ringing, I don't have to produce a quarterly report, and I am the CEO. So, if it take weeks, months, another year...so what? It took five years to build and tune my L96...and it's still in progress. Oh sure, it works AWESOME. Really awesome, but done? I don't think so...

...and that's what makes a great gun...
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Old 09-12-2019, 02:46 PM   #4
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Personally, I have stopped making r-hop (stopped a long time ago) unless I am running a really low fps rifle that I want to run extra heavy bb's in. Even then, with the lower fps rifle, I will put in a shorter barrel than required (cylinder ported accordingly) and a bigger spring. This gives me the low fps needed and a pressure spike to get the heavy bb to backspin more.
This seems to work just as well and saves wasting time on the R patch. The barrels I use in lower fps rifles are normally about 180-300mm long.
Once a rifle is around the 1.6-7 joule mark, it can backspin a 0.4gm quite well without the pressure spike (Correct cylinder to barrel ratio needed) or R-hop. This would be because there is then a natural pressure spike. So now in my DMR's I just use a stock 60 degree bucking. Nothing special.
In our club, we have another technician that I have played alongside with for over 10 years (His garage is full or parts from previous creations). He is a R-Hop fan but he is always wondering how my rifles beat his when he is using the same bb weight. I tell him how and what I do but he has made it his objective is to beat my rifle using R-hop. So far, mine have pretty much always beaten his for range and accuracy and that is with a stock standard bucking.
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Old 09-12-2019, 02:55 PM   #5
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I mean look at the Mk23 with TDC mods. It's a 1.2-1.3 Joule pistol that hops .48g+ bbs out to ranges exceeding most AEGs.

I assume, much like your ported cylinder mods, it's due to it having a high pressure spike from the NBB gas system and a well locked in hop up that isn't allowed any movement or give with the (Hadron) TDC system in place.

The Mk23 breaks all the rules for what a low powered airsoft gun should be able to do, and is a supreme example of fps not equaling range.

Edit:

In addition, I would certainly read a tutorial on what a 'proper' R hop is supposed to be like. I have both the resources and (occasionally) the time to attempt to replicate it. Either way, until I see one actually outperform a well sorted standard hop up, I'll stick with the ML buckings.

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Old 09-12-2019, 03:58 PM   #6
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I think the issues people are having with R-hops stem from the fact that they're not inherently better than a Maple Leaf or similar bucking, they just CAN be. (I'm going to be bold and say that's a fact).

I have an r-hopped barrel from MasterJuggler's old kit, but I haven't gotten a chance to compare it to a Maple Leaf. I ought to do that, although the r-hop probably isn't what it used to be after sitting so long. If that's a thing.
But it's still good. Relative to other rifles with other buckings, I tend to outrage them by a slight margin, but again, different rifles.

Zero, that's beautiful...spending hours to push towards the limits of airsoft precision... I have some tubing and a couple spare barrels, and a spare gun. I should spend some spare time on them.

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Old 09-12-2019, 04:00 PM   #7
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Now in your case, 1 tonne, we'll make a huge exception. If anyone can get the most out of shelf gear, it's you. You've done the research and your gear is on point, which is pretty much the argument to begin with. hehehehe.

Nope, no tutorial. Sorry...nothing to see here. But hey, think about it, study how the ideal flight trajectory of a given BB should be, then make the rifle replicate that. Piece of cake. That's where the r hop really turns on. It's not so much the r hop itself, but in with what 1 tonne is saying, it's how you make it all work together. But yes, it does have potential to perform to a ridiculous level if you take it that far.
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Old 09-12-2019, 04:59 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slug_ View Post
I think the issues people are having with R-hops stem from the fact that they're not inherently better than a Maple Leaf or similar bucking, they just CAN be. (I'm going to be bold and say that's a fact).

I have an r-hopped barrel from MasterJuggler's old kit, but I haven't gotten a chance to compare it to a Maple Leaf. I ought to do that, although the r-hop probably isn't what it used to be after sitting so long. If that's a thing.
But it's still good. Relative to other rifles with other buckings, I tend to outrage them by a slight margin, but again, different rifles.

Zero, that's beautiful...spending hours to push towards the limits of airsoft precision... I have some tubing and a couple spare barrels, and a spare gun. I should spend some spare time on them.

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Absolutely on point, Slug. 100 percent! It's about POTENTIAL. Because the r hop platform is essentially a blank slate, it knows no bounds to form or performance limits. It is what you make it. Very vague, I know...but that's what it is.

The lifespan of your R hop will depend on the materials used to do it. In the beginning when I was buying HS5 patches, they were a semi hard black rubber compound and although they were much easier to cut and trim, they did go brittle. These days I'm rocking food grade silicone. A super nuisance to shape due to its extremely squishy behaviour, but I'm sure it has an infinite shelf life as well as having no memory, even after months with pressure on it. (yep we tested that too).

Like 1 tonne proves, and myself when I do get out there, it's a combination of the whole unit right from the butt pad to the BB. You have to make it all work together...all of it.

As for studying the subject, it's a very cheap way to hunt for the elusive absolute. I've been a science geek since I was a little kid and I look for it in everything...motors, airsoft guns, whatever. The mechanics and principles involved in airsoft is absolutely fascinating with very visible results. Cheers...
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Old 09-12-2019, 05:04 PM   #9
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I'm a R-hop diehard. I bought the crazy jet+ bucking+ AA chamber with omega nub (plus several 3D printed larger nubs) just to see if it's as legendary as you guys say, it "sucked" compared to my expectations. Sure it works for standard gameplay but not jaw dropping, mind blowing.
For the fact it's drop in, ish, it's great, partly (I'd say mostly) duo to the unbridged barrel with short window which hold the bb better and does not allow the nub to tilt.
Now the setup I use, as Zero said, isn't r-hop anymore. My barrel is ported, lathed and milled to lock the r-hop patch firmly in place, milled one piece hop up arm with nub that matches the hop window, and parallel with the barrel/patch when it's set to hop the bb I plan to use with it. And I love it, both the process of making and using it.
+1 on the food grade silicon. Just make sure your gun spits out clean air.
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Roaster View Post
Absolutely on point, Slug. 100 percent! It's about POTENTIAL. Because the r hop platform is essentially a blank slate, it knows no bounds to form or performance limits. It is what you make it. Very vague, I know...but that's what it is.

The lifespan of your R hop will depend on the materials used to do it. In the beginning when I was buying HS5 patches, they were a semi hard black rubber compound and although they were much easier to cut and trim, they did go brittle. These days I'm rocking food grade silicone. A super nuisance to shape due to its extremely squishy behaviour, but I'm sure it has an infinite shelf life as well as having no memory, even after months with pressure on it. (yep we tested that too).

Like 1 tonne proves, and myself when I do get out there, it's a combination of the whole unit right from the butt pad to the BB. You have to make it all work together...all of it.

As for studying the subject, it's a very cheap way to hunt for the elusive absolute. I've been a science geek since I was a little kid and I look for it in everything...motors, airsoft guns, whatever. The mechanics and principles involved in airsoft is absolutely fascinating with very visible results. Cheers...



Food grade silicone? That's a mighty fine idea, I need to play around with that over break. Everyone wants a guide from you Zero, but you guide us far more subtly--if only we're willing to listen and forge ahead ourselves.


I think custom mods are really underappreciated by airsofters at large. It's really a shame. Airsoft rifles are getting better for cheaper it seems, and people still haven't figured out there's no inherent difference between a $450 Krytac and my $130 G&G.



Sure, one's better out of the box, but a roll of teflon and an hour later...the differences start to disappear. Throw 70 bucks and a few more days at the G&G, and now who has the better gun and cash to spare?


Same with Novy and his stuff. Fine...but that's the easy way out, and a sniper should know every nut and bolt in his weapon. Or else what is he? A kid with a kinda far-range shooty stick?



And then it seems everyone wants to upgrade...But no one wants the time spent.


I know manufacturers have to appeal to the masses to sell, I understand that, I have no problem with it. But I think a lot of that carries over to upgrades. People want a drop-in fix, and for the most part, that's fine.
But they'll never quite get there...to that magical moment you realize, you can make things work yourself, you can cut and grind and polish and mold and you might know a thing or two no manufacturer does.



Mechanics and design have been my one(two?) true love(s) ever since I can remember. I think you said exactly what I like best about working with airsoft, besides the innate fun: I can see the results. And just something about seeing an idea I had work, and work well. I don't have kids, but I'd imagine it's something like watching one do well. On a much, much smaller scale. But I still puff up with a little bit of pride when the other kids ask my brother about what's goin' on inside his gun to make it shoot like that...
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:09 AM   #11
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I haven’t been on the forums long, but I know that R hop vs maple leaf has always been a debate. There’s no real proof or comparison other than word of mouth. I don’t mean this in an offensive way, but EVERY time someone says R hop is no better, the reason is always “you haven’t done it properly”. SO, I’d love to actually use/witness an ungodly good “proper” r hop.

WHAT IF I paid 2 different people on here for a top notch setup of a maple leaf and r hop.

For example, the parts and labor for a hop unit, barrel, patch install, nub etc for an r hop, and then;

Parts and labor for a maple leaf setup. Zero could be the r hop and someone else on the forum could do the maple leaf, even if it’s just a “drop in”. I’d be down to drop them in one of my rifles and field them and/or do a review and record it all.
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Old 09-13-2019, 08:18 AM   #12
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Could Zero or wyz2287 just post there groupings? I feel like a grouping pic at like 300ft or so could be a pretty definitive answer.
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Old 09-13-2019, 08:30 AM   #13
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Also, @blind sniper they could (and should) probably just do what you are saying themselves and post that. Id chip in for them to buy the ml cj and autobot, and they could do the settup and groupings themselves. Especially Zero, as I believe he has access to a very wide open and windless indoor space for testing.
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Old 09-13-2019, 09:21 AM   #14
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I'd definitely do that once I have a proper place to do it. However I can not make a comparison any more because I have no stock chambers and parts to retest the maple leaf set.
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Old 09-13-2019, 09:28 AM   #15
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Also, @blind sniper they could (and should) probably just do what you are saying themselves and post that. Id chip in for them to buy the ml cj and autobot, and they could do the settup and groupings themselves. Especially Zero, as I believe he has access to a very wide open and windless indoor space for testing.
I have a few maple leaf setups but I’d want it all done by the “pros” so there’s no excuse about nub alignment etc. They should post and record results but some don’t have cameras or time to do so. Like Zero said with the weather, it’s getting cold soon by me so I’ll have more time and I have some cameras. It would be awesome to do a comparison!
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