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Old 04-14-2020, 10:57 PM   #1
Sodium   Sodium is online now
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Maximum BB potential

With the up-and-coming Airsoft Philosopher chamber, there seems to have been a ton of contention as to whether or not, using aftermarket parts, we have reached the pinnacle of airsoft accuracy. To this I must say: why???

I simply do not understand how one could claim that we have reached a peak, especially considering the parts currently out. There are quite a few flaws in modern systems that have to have at least some impact on accuracy. And to top all that off, no big changes or testing has been made in years!

To address the Mr-hop bucking: It does not have perfect air seal, leading to fps variation of +-3 minimum. If the bb is fired through the bucking at a different speed, even be it small, it must have at least a slightly different trajectory than the previous shot. Also, no one has truly done an R-hop vs Maple leaf grouping test. Fundamentally, there's a huge difference between bridged and unbridged barrels. bb placement, patch travel path, patch pressure dispersion, etc...

To address barrels: There have been almost zero tests here. Everything that everyone is saying at this point is almost entirely anecdotal. Hell, we don't even know if porting truly makes a difference or not. LRB? Who the heck knows. No one ever actually tested it. It was just kinda forgotten...

It seems to me that in this community, every time a new product comes out and settles in, everyone starts to fall into the complacent "we've reached the end" mentality. Originally, people on this forum were actually discouraging people from buying the Mr-hop bucking in favor of the autobot, just because they didn't believe it would make a difference. Anyone that has tried the two could vouch that there is indeed a pretty significant improvement though..

Where did the sense of wonder and strive that once drove this forum go?? I do not believe we have reached the pinnacle of airsoft accuracy. Sure, maybe it doesn't really make that big a difference in game. In the right hands, a spring pistol can destroy a whole enemy team. Maybe the impact of the barrel in terms of accuracy is imperceivable. Maybe it's the same with small fps deviation and rhop vs buckings. But by making a bunch of small changes, eventually they should add up to doing something great!

What I'm trying to say is, sure being a skeptic is fine and all. That's the best way to save money, especially if you're already successful on the field. Though this is true, why discourage others from testing out and trying to improve this sport?
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Old 04-15-2020, 02:32 AM   #2
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A lot of us on here have tried most of the ideas out there (R-hop, LRB, Porting barrels, Porting cylinders, weight pistons etc). And most of the ideas don't really net any gain over the previous. Some have but most haven't.
Really all our systems are is compress gas pushing a bb through a pipe that has a piece of rubber on the top to make the bb backspin. We keep rehashing the same ideas but just in a different package and maybe change one little thing on it. But chances are, that the little change has already been tried and this is just another rehash of it.
So you either need to change our system altogether or change the projectile.
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Old 04-15-2020, 03:49 AM   #3
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The issue is that while you can do a lot of changes and optimizations to a hop up system (like how Tokyo Marui changed from a hop up lever arm, into a vertically adjusted system in their M40 which is infinitely better than the AA chamber's leverage system in terms of pressure evening), the problem isn't so much as the system itself as much as the precision of parts, where randomness or imperfections start taking place.

MR hop is merely the R-Hop patch system made into an idiot proof bucking, and even the bucking itself has quite a few issues (leakage, hop pressure tilts to the left slightly). It, while provides what is an insane amount of horizontal consistency, by itself provides nothing special in terms of breakthrough and honestly should be something made since day one of airsoft.
(Interestingly the leakage issue is not that big of a deal outside of the lowered fps, due to the leak being consistent; it's comparable to the Autobot bucking in consistency despite the leak)

At some point there comes the issue of practicality and costs, and if cost is disregarded, then you've reached the issue of human technology limiting our capability to make even more precise stuff. At present consumer grade metallurgy allows like precision of up to 0.1mm for pot metals, while hardened steel and aluminum alloys are not as precise due to their difficulty.

BBs are also too imprecise - even if invisible to the naked eye and too miniscule for one's senses to feel so. They were meant to be as expendable as all hell and never actually meant to be "pinpoint accurate". You can have your barrel be polished so well it's as reflective as those lenses for the Hubble telescope and those BBs won't be able to cope with that kind of perfection.
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Old 04-15-2020, 09:53 AM   #4
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Sodium, where are your personal results? Instead of relying on the community and its findings, set up your own bench (like we have) and get at er. Let us know how that went. :)

It's like I've told you before, stop speculating and get building. Now, lecture aside, the limit is the projectile. There is a terminal velocity on everything. It can be modelled, it can be experimented, and it can be exhausted. I've been studying the .3 and .4g BB's for years now. I focus on those because they're readily available in my area. No point in owning a rifle that uses exclusive ammo, you'll run out quick!

In the case of .3's I've shot them out of just about every platform there is (including a bench rig with absolute stability) and there is definitely a limit to what it can do. No different than a .22LR, a 30/06, or a 7.62. The rifle is only as good as the ammo. PERIOD.

So, step one, find the limit of the ammo. Done. Step two, build something and see how close it is to the limit. Then start closing the gap. Taking all tolerances into consideration, there are losses in physics, it's a fact. Airsoft has a bag of losses. Component quality and availability, manufacturing tolerances, and it's driven by price point. As a fabricator, I promised myself that when it came to my rifle I would never log the hours I put into it so I don't cut myself off from development. hahahaha

So, years later, and yes...a PILE of hours (just like alot of us here have put in), and I think we've gotten as good as it's going to get for a gaming rifle. Sure, I can keep going, but then I'm not financially independant, and I'm still married, and I still have a life outside of airsoft...so, yeah, that's as good as it's going to get. :)

What this does show me though, is that there are limits, and there are incremental gains, but if you truly, truly want to exrecise the options, that's up to you to do it.
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Old 04-15-2020, 11:34 AM   #5
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There are always improvements to be made. This is true not just in airsoft, but everything in life.

And if bbs are your limiting factor, get better bbs.
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Old 04-15-2020, 12:24 PM   #6
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I may be a bit of a hypocrite for posting this when I haven't done any true experimenting myself, but that's because like many here, I neither have money, nor a place to do from tests.

Also @Zero, I'm surprised you approached this post from that angle. A lot of my philosophy comes from you. In the post, I was specifically referring to commercially available aftermarket parts, and you've always been the first to claim that aftermarket parts cannot compare to something truly crafted to perfection. Otherwise why would sink so much time and effort into honing in your rifle? Maybe you have reached the pinnacle of airsoft accuracy (which I still find doubtful,) but, while I haven't seen your guns in person, I do not believe guns built solely on commercial parts would compare to yours.

Also @TenshouYoku, Mr. Hop is not just rhop for dummies. It is unbridged, which is already very different. Maybe (?) it performs the same as a Zero Rhop, but it's still certainly not the same thing.



The latest thing that I've sunk my cash into is the airsoft philosopher system. I did this because I see it as the biggest change in the VSR space in a very very long time. That, and all I needed was a hopup chamber to build another gun that I can now finish and sell, so I'm not really losing any money.
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Old 04-15-2020, 01:40 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sodium View Post
Also @Zero, I'm surprised you approached this post from that angle. A lot of my philosophy comes from you. In the post, I was specifically referring to commercially available aftermarket parts, and you've always been the first to claim that aftermarket parts cannot compare to something truly crafted to perfection. Otherwise why would sink so much time and effort into honing in your rifle? Maybe you have reached the pinnacle of airsoft accuracy (which I still find doubtful,) but, while I haven't seen your guns in person, I do not believe guns built solely on commercial parts would compare to yours.
You didn't read that right...I never said I reached the pinnacle, what I have reached is a balance. The balance between what's available, and what I can get out of it. I also maintain that yes, there is no off the rack rifle that'll catch a custom...I never said different, and no one that's got a real trick build will say different either. It's apples and oranges.

The pinnacle, like in everything be it space ships, magnetic propulsion, or toasters, will never be reached on a production scale, or any scale. It's just too fine of a line for the world we live in. Masada, there is no best BB here, and shipping them in is something we just can't do in these parts...so, go for the pinnacle of what's available...the 'realistic pinnacle'.

The limit is still the ammo. Now, we can work on other areas. Get the same range, but with less noise, less mechanical effort, in a more reliable platform. Think automobile. They've been going 60mph forever...but, better brakes, better mileage, longer wear and tear, etc. I started driving with carburetors and let me tell you, my injected Pentastar is work of art! Is it the pinnacle? Oh no...hardly, but considering environment, cost, and all realistic factors, then it has just become the pinnacle.

But, the limitations in a car is ultimately the road, in an airsoft gun, it's still the BB.
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Old 04-15-2020, 03:19 PM   #8
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Which is why someone needs to come up with a rifled barrel and a D shaped projectile similar to a bullet. Then it may be more accurate.
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Old 04-15-2020, 03:33 PM   #9
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Would a D shaped projectile outweigh the benefits of hopup?
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Old 04-15-2020, 03:52 PM   #10
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Would a D shaped projectile outweigh the benefits of hopup?
Of course. No hop up is needed when a rifled barrel spins the projectile. I wonder what would be the range of such thing assuming 6mm and around .5g weight.
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Old 04-15-2020, 03:53 PM   #11
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Damn when I think about it I would love to try that. Casting a projectile form resin would be easy, then coming up with rifling and actually making that’s another level.
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Old 04-15-2020, 04:06 PM   #12
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I don't know the specifics of rifling, but my worry would be plastic traveling through rifling may cause tons of gunk build up. The easiest way to test would be to take a mold a real 5.56 bullet, make a plastic/resin copy, and use a real rifled barrel to test, powered by an airsoft cylinder.

Actually doesn't sound like much work. Another fear with such a projectile is it holding it's velocity for much longer, requiring longer MED's (? Idk what I'm talking about in reality ?)
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Old 04-15-2020, 04:10 PM   #13
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I don't know the specifics of rifling, but my worry would be plastic traveling through rifling may cause tons of gunk build up. The easiest way to test would be to take a mold a real 5.56 bullet, make a plastic/resin copy, and use a real rifled barrel to test, powered by an airsoft cylinder.

Actually doesn't sound like much work. Another fear with such a projectile is it holding it's velocity for much longer, requiring longer MED's (? Idk what I'm talking about in reality ?)
Exactly, we don’t how much longer (or not) would it keep the energy. I think it’s an interesting case.
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Old 04-15-2020, 04:13 PM   #14
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After a quick google search, the consensus is that they wouldn't have hopup, and while maybe they could be more accurate, they would not have nearly the same range.
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Old 04-15-2020, 04:53 PM   #15
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The issue with a rifled lightweight bullet is that it needs a whole pile of energy to keep flying (think .177 Varmint). This is where we see that under the influence of the hop up, the BB truly is flying (lift being generated, etc).

For the rifled bullet to work you need to spin the begeezez out of it to keep it straight so say at 500 fps, an airsoft rifle far outshoots a pellet gun with rifling, yet the pellet weighs more than a BB. A 6mm plastic projectile would have too much drag to inertia ratio at 500 fps to make it stable or practical at any of the ranges we enjoy with an airsoft gun. You either have to give it more mass like a .22 pellet, or a whole lot more speed like a .22 short. Either way, yes MED's would have to change substantially, as would the tac gear...y'know what, just don't do it. hehehe
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