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Old 05-20-2017, 03:22 PM   #1
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camo philosophy

I usually never see camo done right, like how digital acu is common(it's better than nothing but it doesn't work in 99% of environments, shit from walmart beats the crap out of it). Or it's a ghillie, whereas in 90 degree weather it's friggin awful to use and requires some form of training that barely any of the users have to properly camouflage. I even see people that don't care about it and just wear navy camo even though their in a forest. They perform perfectly fine, sure they can't hide in plain sight but very few people can.

So why have that sort of advantage over other players when you can do it and they can't or won't. It isn't a fair fight, just like how fields allow 20 rps and it's game breaking.

TL;DR camo isn't commonly done correctly, it shouldn't be done right as that would force everyone else to do it to keep up so why not just wear a t shirt and jeans?
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Old 05-20-2017, 05:11 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by Jroble96 View Post
So why have that sort of advantage over other players when you can do it and they can't or won't. It isn't a fair fight, just like how fields allow 20 rps and it's game breaking.
In real war, nothing is ever even or fair. In airsoft nothing is ever even or fair either. So if you can make a tactical advantage in your favour, then why not. Otherwise the enemy may have the tactical advantage over you. We use long range sniper rifles and some would say that we have a tactical advantage and it is unfair over AEG's but AEG's are spam cannons and they also have there own advantages. Even the field terrain you are on is never exactly even. One end of the field may be slightly higher than the other or may be more dense in bush. So nothing is ever fair.
The fairness in the game is that we can all try to hide as well as we can. Some can do it well and some can't. The ones that can't will hopefully learn over time.
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Old 05-24-2017, 03:18 PM   #3
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I agree with 1tonne on this one. In fact, the entire philosophy of a sniper is based on tactical advantage.

Seeing the enemy before he sees you may be seen as "unfair" when really it is just an advantage that takes some skill and a little bit of luck.

For me, Using a stock sniper, I do everything to keep the ball in the enemies court. Do the unexpected. Sometimes I even reveal myself than when the look away disappear just to cause confusion and fear among the enemy.

Just last weekend, it was me against 5 players with AEGs. I walked out about 100 yards from them. they saw me then when the looked away i sprinted up to a little barricade about 30m away from the farthest enemy. funny thing was there was an enemy player about 10 yards to my left. They were so confused at where i went that they actually moved closer and out from cover. i shot 4 of them because after one was down they seemed to move into the same spot where the guy was shot. then the player my right was so scared he was just spamming randomly in the woods. I don't like head shots but the guy had a full face mask so that's what he got.

That situation is the epidemy of how i play and is based on setting up "unfair" situations just like this. it really isn't unfair just a tactical advantage that takes skill and luck to set up.

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Old 06-28-2017, 03:17 PM   #4
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But having an advantage like that makes the game harder for the enemy, they will have to spend more money to keep up, so why not have the field standard be regular clothes as thats more fast paced because you can see the enemy and the enemy can see you. If you've ever played a game where people can camoflauge themselves, you might see that it makes gameplay alot slower and alot more difficult for both sides, take warthunder for example.
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Old 06-28-2017, 03:38 PM   #5
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You could make the game a non camo one. It would just be a different way of playing but most people like the idea of camo
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Old 06-28-2017, 08:35 PM   #6
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its for looks, but you can look just as good with casual clothes, with camo, it's just a game of who can bullshît the hardest, there isn't much bullshît when you have some dad with jeans and a white t shirt right there for you to shoot. You see him, he sees you, you both shoot at eachother, not who spent 100 dollars on some fullbody thingamabob vs someone who spent either 20 bucks or 200 bucks on some other stuff. It's just less money for upgrades. What's great about it is that you can have teams with colored shirts so you dont have to rely on the stupid armband or camo pattern or other garbage systems of identification that are easily exploitable.
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Old 06-28-2017, 08:50 PM   #7
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What people wear creates far less of a balance issue compared to the vast difference in performance of airsoft guns imo.
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Old 06-29-2017, 10:38 AM   #8
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***DID a long post about this, forum decided to take a shit over it, lost the post, not much energy/time to rewrite all of it haha***

I think you are missing an important side of using camo, specifically ghillie, viper hood, stalker suit.
It takes skills and knowledge to use it properly, it doesnt give you magical dissapearing powers just by itself you need to know HOW to use it, if you dont youll be more of a target than not.

I live in a completely desertic area (https://worldraider.files.wordpress....esentativo.jpg), couple of weeks ago i was stalking a enemy "counter-sniper" (basically a Call of Duty type), i wanted a knife kill but only managed to get as close as 40 meters until he got into a wide open area, i spotted a place behind a pretty small column (the field are ruins of a big housing complex) that provided good line of sight, now, since i wear a viper hood that only covers my head, shoulders and arms, a tan shirt and flat green trousers what i did was position myself as to get ONLY my trousers below the column´s shadow and the rest out in the open with my left arm breaking the form of my rifle that way my sillhoutte was broken in several parts, i took the shot and missed and still hate myself for missing that 40 meters shot, the bb whizzed by his ear and he turned around, scanned my position for a good minute then ran away, he knew i was hunting him.
If i had moved, if something wasnt properly setup in my positioning (arm covering rifle, legs at an angle, etc), in the use of shadows to break my line, in the colors i used to blend with my field for this season, etc, i wouldve been spotted and hit RIGHT Away.

It takes planning, knowledge and skill to properly use that kind of camo, its more of a trade off, by using ghillies and the likes you capitalize on a set of skills and a type of play but you also aquire vulnerabilities.

Also, if someone is using ghillie and similar suits improperly but still someone doesnt spots them, its very probable that the would be "spotter" is a new player not used to properly scanning or just a bad player with bad habits.
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Old 06-29-2017, 12:26 PM   #9
 
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So what I am hearing is that camo is OP and should be abolished because most people do not utilize it properly? I understand wanting to "balance" out airsoft, but reality check, not going to happen. The only way that will happen on a field level, is for the field to force you to use field rentals, field bbs, and for each team wear either a bright red or green paintball jersey, and be semi only. Next is field design, that has to be fair right, because balance! So the field is clear with only mowed grass with nothing else, because bunkers and cover is tots OP. So everyone is split into 2 teams and lined up 300 ft from one another. Each team shoots once at the same time, and takes a 5 ft step forward, until one side is dead or no one is left standing. Sounds fun right?!?! (and yes I have played that game numerous times...)

.... I am sure most people reading this will say "Oh hell no!" Like 1tonne said, nothing is even or fair. There are only 3 ways to prevail at airsoft, out smarting your opponent, taking every advantage you can, and throwing money at the problem. It will take some measure of all 3 to come out on top. (and a bit of luck, but you can't control that.)

I have to go to work, ill finish this later....
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Old 06-29-2017, 01:45 PM   #10
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Its all down to a vote and how you can convince players to do stuff like that. Field rules are real so fields should have rules on range because of flat hops, r hops, h hops, g hops n stuff aswell and it should set a standard. A good example would be if your field made and sold r hop patches while the person would give em the barrel and watch them make the patch and glue it on n stuff for a low price, like 10-15 bucks, maybe lap barrels and do compression work for cheap too so everyone has an effective range of 270 ft that would be the standard. Aswell as having the standard bb for the field be something good like a G&G .28(their cheap as hell and you could sell them). Yes it would be completely doable, red shirts vs blue shirts. Everything else plazma said other than that is an example of someone getting salty because someone challenged his bias and is an exercise of cognitive inflexibility.

Also, to deal with the problem of people wanting to wear camo, you could just explain the philosophy behind the field rules. Also, it really helps refs not get shot because they could just do some other color, like yellow or green. You could also sell the red and blue shirts. Maybe have teams and stuff, those shirts are hella cheap.

And yes, I know that there will be players better than other players, it's just that when this is done, there will be legitimately an even playing field where the only advantages are from player's skills instead of if they're using a fully suppressed polarstar running at 20-30 rps or if they got lucky with camo patterns. It is an advantage and advantages should only be with tactics or something that wont piss off players. I know everyone hates it when they cant see someone they got shot by. It's fun for whoever did the shooting but not for who's being shot and if you learnt a bit of psychology, you would see that with the same stimulus, the negative gives twice as much as a reaction than the positive.

For instance, if you gave a teddy bear to a kid it would mentally affect him half as much as if you took the teddy bear away from him. Do you see what I mean?

Heres the reason behind this, we are evolutionary primed to work like that because you wouldn't want your ancestors to be ok with good and bad things, you would want them to move forward so the response to bad things is going to be more severe than response to good things so they would avoid bad things and be attracted to good things instead of really liking good things and not disliking bad things enough. When we have people that have that balanced oddly we get people that don't like to be disagreed with(just an example, its unintentional if it seems like this relates to something I wrote above) and hedonists, people that just love to smoke pot or have tons of money at the expense of others as the negative stimulus from the thought of harming others isn't high enough and the thought of having alot of money is too high.

Sure it's great to have radicals, but its a double edged sword and stability is always better than instability. You get innovators with this unbalance as the real factor is ones moral compass and intelligence, what people say is degeneracy adds variety aswell as other important things, including some good catch 22s.

a little source as there isnt much info on this stuff, its mostly philosophy.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18229484

Last edited by Jroble96; 06-29-2017 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 06-29-2017, 05:03 PM   #11
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I don't know where to start. So, I'll just leave my 2 cents as short as possible. I come from using camo to hunt, I enjoy the aspect of stalking other players. I have been shot from people who saw me and I didn't see them. It was great for that person and me, just made me realize I needed to step up my game at the time. And that's what this is, a game. It's for fun. Some people like building a better airsoft gun. It's part of their skill and their enjoyment of the game. I personally enjoy tinkering with my gun until I feel it's perfect (which it never is. :-) ). I also see it as, my having a ghillie (in 90+ degree weather with matching humidity, I live in FL.) with my bolt action VSR-X, is an even playing field against someone with an AEG or other semi/full auto gun that can fling bbs at me on a whim. It's part of the fun and challenge and it's fair. If you like playing a game with everyone wearing the exact same brightly colored uniform and having the exact same equipment, maybe basketball, or football, or some other such team sport may be more to your liking. Otherwise, get your personal gear, with your gun of choice and shoot some people with plastic bbs and have fun.
The whole idea of making this a paintball knockoff, just doesn't make sense to me. And even in Paintball, everyone has different markers, so that part is not "even" either.

Not sure this was coherent at all, the whole thought process here just baffles me.
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Old 06-29-2017, 10:12 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Jroble96 View Post
the only advantages are from player's skills instead of if they're using a fully suppressed polarstar running at 20-30 rps
Just want to point out here that 20 or 30 RPS isn't a miraculous feat. Throw a 11.1v lipo in a stock JG and you're at 20 RPS. Throw a $30 SHS high torque motor in that JG and you're at 30. And just because someone puts an HPA engine in their gun doesn't mean it shoots well. There's a whole skill side to upgrading and modding guns, too. If someone is upset that they're getting out ranged, then they could just learn how to upgrade their gun to get that advantage. Same goes for camo. If you don't like getting seen across the field in your jeans and cut off, go down to a surplus store and buy some BDUs for $20. There's more than one metric for skill in airsoft and limiting it to a single aspect is no bueno.
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Old 06-29-2017, 10:34 PM   #13
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what your doing isn't game breaking because you have a bolt action and thats what puts you at the disadvantage. It seems as if you diddn't read what I said, what I said was "it should be down to a vote" and "red shirts vs blue shirts is more balanced than pay to win"

Also, you could feasibly have everyone using rental guns if you decided to put a good 4000-8000 bucks into e&ls and a good 2000 bucks into making them internally more durable and securing all the parts onto the gun itself so nobody steals anything and nothing falls off of them but that's the endgame.
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Old 06-29-2017, 10:41 PM   #14
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I actually don't own a BASR. I just browse this forum because it has just the right amount of activity and there's a lot of more in depth technical knowledge on here. What I want to know is, where are you playing that it's "feasible" for a field owner to drop $10k on rental guns?
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Old 06-30-2017, 02:53 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Jroble96 View Post
what your doing isn't game breaking because you have a bolt action and thats what puts you at the disadvantage. It seems as if you diddn't read what I said, what I said was "it should be down to a vote" and "red shirts vs blue shirts is more balanced than pay to win"

Also, you could feasibly have everyone using rental guns if you decided to put a good 4000-8000 bucks into e&ls and a good 2000 bucks into making them internally more durable and securing all the parts onto the gun itself so nobody steals anything and nothing falls off of them but that's the endgame.
That's the great thing about this hobby (you know hobbies, where no one is forcing you to participate) I enjoy being at the disadvantage of one shot at a time. It adds challenge, nothing is handed to me, I work to win.
The entire sport is pay to win, and also pay to lose. It's not free.
With that said, unless you're just trolling to get a reaction, what is the motivation behind wanting this everyone to be the same thing? To me, IMHO, it sounds akin to the participation trophy mentality that is a cancer in our society, where no one has to try, just show up and everyone gets a trophy because they feel entitled.
And, as far as everyone using a rental gun. In my experience, everyone I've had come out to play (that doesn't have their own equipment) whether they are using my gear or rental gear, always want their own stuff by the end of the day. So, the rental idea is great, for kids who can't afford their own stuff or someone coming out to see if they enjoy the game, but past that, No one wants to use rental gear full time.
Again, only my opinion.
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