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Old 10-29-2016, 05:32 PM   #1
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Vsr 10 fps vs range

Idk where to post sorry if in wrong place.
Also I am posting this under vsr 10 since I didn't know if the different style systems would affect anything.
This is just so I can understand the whole fps doesn't = range concept.

So I'm wondering about what the range difference would be if the gun chronod at 400fps with a .25 compared rock 550fps with a .25 and I username .43s in a game.
I was assuming the range difference would be minimal maybe 10ft or so. I am wrong or right?
Also would the system make a difference since hpa is easier to joule creep with? Like hpa (co2 or tank) vs spring.

Last edited by Thenoobatsniping; 10-29-2016 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 10-29-2016, 06:19 PM   #2
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It's not so much that muzzle velocity doesn't influence range, as that there are many variables and factors.

All things being equal, a gun that shoots hotter is going to be effective to a longer range. The first reason is that a hotter gun means you can lob heavier ammo, which carries energy farther down range. The second is that the faster the projectile goes, the less opportunity your target has to move out of the way (either intentionally or unknowingly).

But! The generally accepted maximum effective range of an airsoft sniper rifle is about 100m. Some people can shoot farther with specialized builds and ammo, but for those of us shooting what's legal at the local pickup field, 100m is pretty much all you can expect in good conditions.

The thing is, you can reach out to 100m without needing crazy amounts of power. Hop is what generates range in airsoft guns, and the difference in transit time between two power levels is usually not so different that it's worth being unsafe.

You shouldn't really worry about trying to get Joule creep. Just tune your gun using heavyweight ammo.

I personally think if you want to be honest, you should calculate out the muzzle energy allowed by your local field (even if they specify it with 0.2g or whatever), and then stay under that energy limit as you tune for heavyweight. But that requires math, and other people think you just tune for maximum power you can get away with. But either way, instead of tuning for 0.2g ammo and then hoping for Joule creep; you tune for your game ammo, and the lightweight test ammo takes care of itself with Joule falloff. If you get it all tuned and you're actually shooting too hot on test ammo, you just detune a little.

Exception: if you run a long barrel, you may shoot too hot with light ammo regardless. Run a shorter barrel.
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Old 10-29-2016, 06:32 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Netzapper View Post
It's not so much that muzzle velocity doesn't influence range, as that there are many variables and factors.

All things being equal, a gun that shoots hotter is going to be effective to a longer range. The first reason is that a hotter gun means you can lob heavier ammo, which carries energy farther down range. The second is that the faster the projectile goes, the less opportunity your target has to move out of the way (either intentionally or unknowingly).

But! The generally accepted maximum effective range of an airsoft sniper rifle is about 100m. Some people can shoot farther with specialized builds and ammo, but for those of us shooting what's legal at the local pickup field, 100m is pretty much all you can expect in good conditions.

The thing is, you can reach out to 100m without needing crazy amounts of power. Hop is what generates range in airsoft guns, and the difference in transit time between two power levels is usually not so different that it's worth being unsafe.

You shouldn't really worry about trying to get Joule creep. Just tune your gun using heavyweight ammo.

I personally think if you want to be honest, you should calculate out the muzzle energy allowed by your local field (even if they specify it with 0.2g or whatever), and then stay under that energy limit as you tune for heavyweight. But that requires math, and other people think you just tune for maximum power you can get away with. But either way, instead of tuning for 0.2g ammo and then hoping for Joule creep; you tune for your game ammo, and the lightweight test ammo takes care of itself with Joule falloff. If you get it all tuned and you're actually shooting too hot on test ammo, you just detune a little.

Exception: if you run a long barrel, you may shoot too hot with light ammo regardless. Run a shorter barrel.
Thank you for replying and telling me all this!
So basically the short answer is no it doesn't the range just the flight time.

I bought a gun set to 550fps with .20s, I plan to run .69s in it.

This is all hypothetical for my understanding of it. I didn't know if joule creep would effect anything thats why I mentioned it.
My local fields all identify .25s for there's chrono. So if the factors where the same and it was a paper target, not a person, would there be a difference in effective range?
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Old 10-29-2016, 07:37 PM   #4
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Generally speaking, fps has very little influence on range. What really makes bb's fly further is adding more mass to the bb's. The heavier your bb, the further the range and the flatter the trajectory for a given range.

The nice thing about high fps is that you can use heavy bb's like Netzapper said, and those fly further. The difference between 400 and 500 fps is indeed something like 10 feet. The difference between .3 and .36 is more like 10 yards, even if they're fired at the same muzzle energy/fps (that fps being measured with .2's, obviously the actual fps with .36 will be lower than with .3).

Range is determined mostly by the mass of your bb's. Fps has a little influence but not a lot. You just need higher fps to really properly use heavier bb's, but if you'd use higher fps without switching to heavier bb's you will see little to no improvement in your range

Just talking about "range" here, not effective range or accuracy, that's a different story (even though those also vastly benefit from heavier bb's).

Quote:
The thing is, you can reach out to 100m without needing crazy amounts of power.
100m (110 yards, 330') is a crazy long distance that some people vastly underestimate. It is about the maximum range of 550 fps (2.8 J) with .45 g bb's under ideal conditions. Using 500 fps and .4's, 90 meters is all you're going to get. And that's maximum range, not effective range

You do need some serious punch to reach out beyond 300'. More than 2 J and .36 g bb's, those won't even reach 300' without lobbing
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Old 10-29-2016, 09:26 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Reliku View Post
Generally speaking, fps has very little influence on range. What really makes bb's fly further is adding more mass to the bb's. The heavier your bb, the further the range and the flatter the trajectory for a given range.

The nice thing about high fps is that you can use heavy bb's like Netzapper said, and those fly further. The difference between 400 and 500 fps is indeed something like 10 feet. The difference between .3 and .36 is more like 10 yards, even if they're fired at the same muzzle energy/fps (that fps being measured with .2's, obviously the actual fps with .36 will be lower than with .3).

Range is determined mostly by the mass of your bb's. Fps has a little influence but not a lot. You just need higher fps to really properly use heavier bb's, but if you'd use higher fps without switching to heavier bb's you will see little to no improvement in your range

Just talking about "range" here, not effective range or accuracy, that's a different story (even though those also vastly benefit from heavier bb's).



100m (110 yards, 330') is a crazy long distance that some people vastly underestimate. It is about the maximum range of 550 fps (2.8 J) with .45 g bb's under ideal conditions. Using 500 fps and .4's, 90 meters is all you're going to get. And that's maximum range, not effective range

You do need some serious punch to reach out beyond 300'. More than 2 J and .36 g bb's, those won't even reach 300' without lobbing
ok thanks yall cleared this up and I understand.
do you think a 400 fps(chrono with .25s but use .40s) could reach 300 torso shots?
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Old 10-29-2016, 11:20 PM   #6
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Physically speaking, increased projectile velocity does mean a farther range.

If you drop a bullet from the same height you shoot another one, both bullets will hit the group at the same time. Mythbusters did a thing on that.

The only difference between the dropped bullet and the fired bullet is the velocity. If both projectiles take an absurd 2 seconds to hit the ground, the projection with a higher velocity will travel farther.

But if you do the math, shooting from 2 meters off the ground, it will take 0.639 seconds to hit the ground. Shooting at 400 FPS (121.92 meters per second), the BB would go 77.892 meters (255.551 feet), yay! But that's ignoring drag, no!

Drag is a nonlinear equation with respect to velocity, meaning as velocity increments, the drag increases exponentially (velocity squared). This means the BB will slow down very suddenly at the beginning of the time out of the barrel. Gotta do some calculus to determine the instantaneous velocity (and therefore instant drag) on the projectile. Basically, it comes out to the BB going only like 100 feet or something without any hop at 400 FPS. I'll do the math later.

Then there's hop up, which is where the "FPS does not equal range" thing comes from. And that is true as well. The Coandă effect describes that (with a spinning round object) there is a higher pressure due to the slower moving air on a projectile with backspin. That higher pressure on the bottom forces the projectile to have a positive acceleration (hence is goes up). Gravity accelerates down, and the backspin (in RPM) of the BB slows as time continues due to drag. When the upward acceleration of the Coandă effect is less than the downward acceleration of gravity, the BB falls.

Heavier BBs carry more angular momentum due to their larger mass, which means it takes a larger force to slow the spin, or more time for a smaller force to slow the spin to the point where the net force is negative (and the BB drops). It also requires more spin to keep the heavier BB on a straight trajectory, and the angular velocity increases the angular momentum. That's why we use heavy BBs.

But it needs a higher FPS to shoot heavier BBs on a flat trajectory in order to achieve the distance. Otherwise, if your gun shot 300 with a .20 and therefore 282.843 FPS with a .40 (conservation of energy), you get less distance from velocity alone, as the top part of this explains.

The BB only gets a certain amount of time in the air, and the BB travels a certain distances per unit time (hence, feet per second). The net force on the BB from the beginning o the flight is drag in the negative-x, gravity in the negative-y, and the Coandă effect in the positive-y. Gravity and the Coandă effect cancel each other out until the angular momentum of the projectile falls low enough for the Coandă effect to produce an acceleration less than gravity, which is when he BB starts to drop.

yay physics.
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Last edited by bobcat; 10-29-2016 at 11:36 PM.
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Old 10-30-2016, 03:06 AM   #7
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I would suggest aiming at targets 65-70 meters away. This means you will be able to engage at this distance but when you need to do a very long range shot like 80-90 meters, you just need to aim your gun up a little.
My longest shot in game is about 93 meters and that is with a 600fps rifle. Most snipers never reach this far. So aim for a realistic distance of 70 meters.

By the way, as Bobcat has pointed out, higher energy is important as it means you will be able to push out the heavier bb's to longer distances. So yes, in effect, the higher the fps the better range and accuracy.
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Old 10-30-2016, 04:46 AM   #8
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If I only increase FPS but keep the same weight bb's ( in case matced cylinder ratio and inner barrel length ), will it can increase range and accuracy or not ?
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Old 10-30-2016, 08:17 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kazuchan View Post
If I only increase FPS but keep the same weight bb's ( in case matced cylinder ratio and inner barrel length ), will it can increase range and accuracy or not ?
From what they said I would believe no is the answer
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Old 10-30-2016, 01:37 PM   #10
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Indeed. It will increase range and accuracy a tiny bit but not a noticable amount unless it's a really huge fps boost you're talking about
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Old 10-30-2016, 06:48 PM   #11
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Well if you keep the same light BB...

Drag is nonlinear, meaning the higher velocity has an exponentially greater drag. The light BBs require less force per unit time to slow down, meaning it will be going much slower than the original velocity a short time after it leaves the barrel.

Heavy BBs require more force, therefore take longer to slow down. Momentum is just mass * velocity, and the initial momentum plus the final momentum is equal to the force applied * the time it's being applied for.

(m*v1) + (m*v2) = F * t
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Old 10-30-2016, 08:54 PM   #12
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In the UK most field limits are 500 fps on 0.2s for bolt action rifles; my rifle is shooting consistently at 477 give or take 2 fps. The bolt pull is comfortable enough for me to easily cycle the weapon from all positions (including prone). Based on all of the above would I be right in saying it is not worth trying to increase the FPS to by 23 ish to get to 500 considering the following:

1) Buying the next spring up will probably take me over 500fps
2) The bolt pull is fine the way it is; a hotter spring will mess with comfortable set up I have already
3) I can already lift 0.40 and heavier ammo that is of good quality is hard to find. Even at 0.36 is in short supply.
4) Even if points 1 - 3 was a not an issue the slightly higher FPS will probably not make much difference with regards to lifting a heavier BB
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Old 10-31-2016, 11:22 AM   #13
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In the UK most field limits are 500 fps on 0.2s for bolt action rifles; my rifle is shooting consistently at 477 give or take 2 fps. The bolt pull is comfortable enough for me to easily cycle the weapon from all positions (including prone). Based on all of the above would I be right in saying it is not worth trying to increase the FPS to by 23 ish to get to 500 considering the following:

1) Buying the next spring up will probably take me over 500fps
2) The bolt pull is fine the way it is; a hotter spring will mess with comfortable set up I have already
3) I can already lift 0.40 and heavier ammo that is of good quality is hard to find. Even at 0.36 is in short supply.
4) Even if points 1 - 3 was a not an issue the slightly higher FPS will probably not make much difference with regards to lifting a heavier BB

I suggest you get 500fps and use 0.45s, that will be lower fps than your current 470fps setup running 0.4s but more accurate, and more range.
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Old 10-31-2016, 11:28 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by kazuchan View Post
If I only increase FPS but keep the same weight bb's ( in case matced cylinder ratio and inner barrel length ), will it can increase range and accuracy or not ?
the reason why we want to use heavy bbs is like why the power grid using very very high voltage to deliver electricity. They want to reduce the heat consume on the wires. because heat consume is proportional to electric current's square. so they want to carry that energy to voltage but not current.

same as sniper here, we want bb mass to carry the energy rather than the speed..
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Old 10-31-2016, 01:34 PM   #15
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I suggest you get 500fps and use 0.45s, that will be lower fps than your current 470fps setup running 0.4s but more accurate, and more range.
500fps will struggle to get 0.45gm out to good distances. It will be accurate for the distance it does travel but it will most likely not get the range you want.
At 500fps, I normally use 0.36-0.4gm.
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