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Old 04-06-2020, 04:11 AM   #1
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Well MB08 Upgrading Questions

Hi all. I tried posting this on the r/airsoft subreddit and got very little help.

I have a Well MB08 (folding stock L96) that I've turned into a quarantine project after being in and out of airsoft over the years.

I've read around as much as possible but I still have a few questions about my current upgrade plan, and I'm also trying to keep to a reasonable budget. My current plan is:
  • Well MB08 with 4x scope and bipod
  • Well Metal Trigger Box (I know that the Airsoft Pro trigger is better, but I'm only planning using an M150 spring, and because the trigger can supposedly take an M160, I felt this was a fair compromise)
  • Action Army Teflon Cylinder & Cylinder head (to accommodate the M150 spring, and also because the stock cylinder has a thin black rod connecting to the spring guide, that whilst can be removed, still leaves a little notch behind the base of the spring guide in the cylinder that I'm not sure will be structurally sound)
  • Airsoft Pro 9mm metal spring guide
  • Airsoft Pro L96 series metal piston (fits 9mm spring)
  • Action Army M150 spring for L96
  • Action Army Hop Up Unit
  • Maple Leaf Macaron AEG bucking and Omega nub (70 degree)
  • Madbull Python 455mm AEG barrel
  • Barrel spacers

My questions are:
  1. will the Airsoft Pro piston and spring guide (9mm) be compatible with the Action Army teflon cylinder? Or will I get air seal issues?
  2. how can I address and potential air seal issues in the cylinder if the piston and spring guide are slightly imperfect? Just teflon tape underneath the piston O-ring and cylinder head threads?
  3. will the 455mm barrel be sufficient for 0.36g BBs? Or will I lose efficiency going too light?
  4. do I use airsoft gun grease or PTFE grease on the outside of the teflon cylinder?
  5. lastly, are there any other concerns I should have with this build that I have not considered? Anything from part compatibility to actually fitting the new cylinder.

I'm not planning on any extensive mods other than a bit of teflon tape. I'm certainly not flat or R hopping as I have no experience. This is my first attempt at upgrading an airsoft gun, and the delta-bucking maple leaf should be okay.

Hope this also helps anybody else. Any help would be greatly appreciated. When the build is all put together, I will share the chrono results and some shot groupings if people are interested.

Stay well.
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Old 04-06-2020, 11:31 AM   #2
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1. Air seal issues in this rifle depend solely on the o-ring around the piston and the head. If your parts are L96 compatible (which they should be) it should work just fine.

2. The spring guide has nothing to do with air seal. You're good there. There should be an o-ring on the cylinder head so you shouldn't have to worry about a leak there. Don't bother with teflon tape under the piston o-ring either. It needs to move a little in there anyways. You don't want the piston to be tight. Airsoft pistons are not a tight fit in the bore. That's what the o-ring is for.

3. 455mm should be just fine as well. Depending on the smack you get out of the cylinder and the hop up you're playing with, you should have no troubles spinning up a .36g BB with that combination. If it over hops like crazy, try a .4g...but .36 should be fine. Just out of curiosity, what's the inner diameter of that barrel?

4. I tend to use SuperLube or some synthetic equivalent on everything airsoft. It won;t attack the polymers, rubbers, or any other synthetic materials like some EP greases can.

5. slap it together and see where it goes! :)
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Old 04-07-2020, 04:14 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Zero Roaster View Post
1. Air seal issues in this rifle depend solely on the o-ring around the piston and the head. If your parts are L96 compatible (which they should be) it should work just fine.

2. The spring guide has nothing to do with air seal. You're good there. There should be an o-ring on the cylinder head so you shouldn't have to worry about a leak there. Don't bother with teflon tape under the piston o-ring either. It needs to move a little in there anyways. You don't want the piston to be tight. Airsoft pistons are not a tight fit in the bore. That's what the o-ring is for.

3. 455mm should be just fine as well. Depending on the smack you get out of the cylinder and the hop up you're playing with, you should have no troubles spinning up a .36g BB with that combination. If it over hops like crazy, try a .4g...but .36 should be fine. Just out of curiosity, what's the inner diameter of that barrel?

4. I tend to use SuperLube or some synthetic equivalent on everything airsoft. It won;t attack the polymers, rubbers, or any other synthetic materials like some EP greases can.

5. slap it together and see where it goes! :)
Excellent - it sounds like I have been overthinking the cylinder assembly.

I'm using a 6.03mm barrel because I read that 6.03mm-6.04mm seems to perform better than 6.01mm in the Type 96. I haven't seen the technical reasons.

A 455mm with a 6.03mm barrel gives me a barrel volume of 12.994x10^-6 cubic metres (3 decimal places is excessive, I know). The effective cylinder volume on the Type 96 is apparently 29.500x10^-6 cubic metres - so that gives me a cylinder:barrel ratio of 2.27. Hopefully, with a 30g piston I see some good performance with heavy BBs. After getting some new advice, I picked up some 0.40g and 0.43g BBs to play with. I'll go as heavy as my hop-up allows!

I'm going to chrono the rifle with 0.20g, 0.25g, 0.28g, 0.36g, 0.40g, and 0.43g BBs to check the joule creep.

I'll get everything assembled and share the results when I get the chance. I'm not expecting everything to run smoothly straight away.

One final thing: I picked up the Nuprol airosft maintenance kit to get me started, along with some Abbey silicone oil droppers and silicone oil spray. When lubricating the cylinder internals, am I right in thinking that I want to use just enough lubricant to maintain seals and have a smooth action, but not too much lubricant that it starts moving through into the hop up and barrel? When assembling the cylinder with the new parts, do I use grease on the spring guide and spring and keep the silicone oil for the o-rings and any rubber seals?

Thanks for the help. My parts are arriving throughout the week.
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Old 04-07-2020, 07:32 AM   #4
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Quick update: all parts have arrived minus the AA hop up unit. Piston fits the cylinder well, although I didn't realise the AA spring was 7mm not 9mm. Oh well, its still M150 and the spring guide and piston are still compatible. We'll see how it runs. Cylinder feels fantastic - far better than the stock cylinder. I'm looking forward to getting set up.
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Old 04-07-2020, 09:31 AM   #5
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The 6.01 barrel can actually hinder performance especially if the BB's aren't perfect...when are BB's perfect? hehehehe... Over a longer barrel a 6.01 can actually end up taking energy back from the system, act like a brake, and cause all kinds of grief. 6.03-6.04 are ideal. They still keep things on track but have a little 'give' built in.

Yeah, always go light on the lube. Grease on the spring and guide, and if there's a bearing on the guide (which there should be) grease that too. As for the o-ring, it's what floats your canoe. I use Super Lube (synthetic grease) but really light...REALLY light. Nothing goes down the barrel that way.

Again, subject to taste...

Keep us posted!
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Old 04-07-2020, 01:49 PM   #6
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As this was my first attempt at upgrading an airsoft rifle I made a few mistakes. I ended up buying the Madbull 499mm APS2 barrel and Airsoft Pro Gen3 Hop Up unit at first, trying to use AEG buckings. I didn't understand why the groove of the bucking wasn't in the right place etc. until I realised the APS2 barrel wasn't an AEG cut. Silly me.

Anyway, I installed the Action Army hop up bucking for the APS2 barrel today as I figured that I may as well have two builds give that I had the extra parts: a 455mm Action Army hop up build, and a 499mm APS2 build (no plans for r-hopping, etc.).

I installed the Airsoft Pro Gen 3 hop up with stock cylinder, AA APS2 bucking, and 499mm APS2 barrel today. Shot around 100 BBs at 0.36g at around 80ft (the only range I have available, which is minimum engagement for my local field).

After some adjustment and zeroing, the rifle shoots really well. Stock cylinder (which came with metal upgrades) has no leaks and the hop up unit and bucking seem to be hopping 0.36g BBs really well. 0.25g BBs were less impressive. I'm getting 3 inch groupings at 80 ft (25m) using 0.36g BBs. If I were only interested in upgrading the rifle for less than 100 I'd be delighted.

However, I want the rifle to shoot efficiently with 0.40g+ BBs and get better groupings. I also can't test range given my garden size and the current Covid-19 situation. Having the APS2 build available to me as well as an AEG barrel build gives me more flexibility to use some lighter ammo efficiently, I just wish I didn't make those mistakes and have to spend as much money.

I'll chrono both setups later this week to test for joule creep etc.
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:19 PM   #7
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I just wish I didn't make those mistakes and have to spend as much money.
That right there, Good Sir, could be on a coat of arms, or perhaps a tombstone...

In any learning curve there should be a few ruts, y'know? It's all part of the process. Doesn't matter what it is, that is the engineering game. If it makes you feel better, put it in the R&D column.

When you're shooting is that from a fixed rest, leaning on a prop, or standing? 3" groupings with .36 BB's at 80 feet is a fair starting point with what you've done so far. Don't beat yourself up over it. I've seen people do worse with real steel and a scope.

With this whole COVID business it sure puts a damper on wanting to develop anything really whizzy, that's for sure. I've been fooling with pistols only because I can inside my garage. Lately my top secret sniper testing facility has been full with equipment needing repair since the pipeline got approved here this month so I'm scrubbed until I can get outside...which normally is no big deal except that it's still very much winter here. Soooooooooo...pistols it is. hehehehe

The fact that it's shooting well, hops 36's, and no air leaks, well, we'll call that a solid win.
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Old 04-08-2020, 04:09 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Zero Roaster View Post
That right there, Good Sir, could be on a coat of arms, or perhaps a tombstone...

In any learning curve there should be a few ruts, y'know? It's all part of the process. Doesn't matter what it is, that is the engineering game. If it makes you feel better, put it in the R&D column.

When you're shooting is that from a fixed rest, leaning on a prop, or standing? 3" groupings with .36 BB's at 80 feet is a fair starting point with what you've done so far. Don't beat yourself up over it. I've seen people do worse with real steel and a scope.

With this whole COVID business it sure puts a damper on wanting to develop anything really whizzy, that's for sure. I've been fooling with pistols only because I can inside my garage. Lately my top secret sniper testing facility has been full with equipment needing repair since the pipeline got approved here this month so I'm scrubbed until I can get outside...which normally is no big deal except that it's still very much winter here. Soooooooooo...pistols it is. hehehehe

The fact that it's shooting well, hops 36's, and no air leaks, well, we'll call that a solid win.
You're absolutely right - the learning curve has been steep so far - very glad I didn't start out with teching my Cyma M14! As cool as it would be to improve it, the thing is a bloody nightmare to tech. Its years old and probably needs some love and attention, too. Maybe one day.

The shooting is from a seated position using the bipod on a low table, and it was also quite windy - or maybe my shooting just needs to get better!

There's no air leaks with the cylinder at all, and the bucking is so snug inside of the hop up unit that it took a fair amount of force just to get the barrel into the right place (being careful not to misalign the bucking or damage anything, luckily the AirsoftPro Hop-up can be pointed at the light to check everything aligns internally quite easily). I tried teflon taping the front end of the bucking with the barrel for a better seal (out of curiosity more than necessity), but the tape would just peel off as I slid the barrel into the hop up unit, so I'm highly doubtful that there is an air leak at that end of the hop up unit as everything fits so snug. If there is any kind of air leak with the hop up, I expect it'll be with the stock cylinder head interfacing with the hop up unit as it feels like there's a tiny amount of "give" in the nozzle there. I'll have to chrono the setup to see how consistent the FPS is before looking into air leaks any deeper.

I expect having the Action Army Cylinder and Action Army Hop Up Unit working together on the same platform will be considerably better than the stock cylinder head + AP Hop Up.

I'm unsure how to get any more accuracy out of the Airsoft Pro Hop Up, Madbull Python APS2 Barrel, and Action Army APS2 Bucking. Perhaps some kind of flat or r-hopping could help. Seeing as though 0.36g is seemingly the most efficient ammo type for the current cylinder:barrel volume ratio (although I haven't chrono'd it for joules), I don't want to have to just increase BB weight for more accuracy, especially if the current system is hopping 0.36s well.

For reference, the stock rifle was chrono'd at 489fps by the shop.

One more question: what kind of groupings at 80ft could I expect from a well tuned setup with 0.40-0.43g BBs?

Edit: should have said that my 3-inch grouping is a 3-inch diameter, not radius.

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Old 04-08-2020, 05:10 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by SendMeCabbagePics View Post

Edit: should have said that my 3-inch grouping is a 3-inch diameter, not radius.
I've just done a side of A4's worth of maths to figure out what groupings I should be hoping for.

The average male shoulder width is around 40cm. Ideally, at 250ft (76m), I would want 9/10 shots to hit. Basic trigonometry tells us that if a cone is drawn (in 2D) with a height of 250ft and base diameter of 40cm, the angle (or spread angle of BBs, if you will) is 0.306 degrees.

This spread angle corresponds to a grouping at 80ft (24m) of 12.8cm in diameter - just over 5 inches.

Therefore, assuming a consistent BB trajectory, a grouping of less than 5 inches in diameter at 80ft (or 0.128m at 24m for you metric legends) should correspond to a torso hit at 250 feet/76m.

Of course, the limitation is the quality of spin placed on the BB by the hop-up. Any kind of horizontal spin will have a significant effect on the trajectory of the BB later in the flight path that cannot be measured at short ranges.

Clearly, the tighter and more consistent your rifle is, the better. But this at least sets up some parameters for us beginners.
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Old 04-08-2020, 10:23 AM   #10
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Wow!! That was alot of math! hahahaha (and I'm a science guy)

The only problem with all that math is that it merely serves as a model and not actual data. Now, a good model is important, but it can sure go way off track. You need to use calculus, etc, to deal with rates of decay in the flight path as well as the vectors and inertias that are in play simultaneously throughout the flight. Too much math! hahahahaha

Ok, so I figured you were talking 3"diameter. From a sitting rest on a bipod, that's great. You'd be amazed how much the shooter moves in that position. There's still a pile of flex in the system and you'd be amazed at how much you're actually moving.

I did the setup on my L96 with a bore sight (laser) and have a laser on the rifle beside the scope as well. I calibrated the lasers to 50 yards (150ft.). Wherever that dot is, that's where the BB is going. Works every time at 150ft. Now, the only reason I did that was to measure consistency. That involved a fixed rest, a group of BB's measured with a caliper and scale, and an indoor target with little or no air movement. I know the rifle is solid and doing the same thing every time. Any variance is all me or the ammo. The chrono is 474 fps. +/- 1 with 'stock' ammo. So, low 473, high 475... BUT, I have seen variances in the ammo from one batch to the next. It's never a perfect science. :)

Another thing to consider is how the spin is working throughout the flight path and the forces that act upon it. Things like barometric pressure, altitude, change from shadow to sunshine..here we can have a variance of 20C when shooting out of the shadows and into an open field. Because the BB is flying, it will affect trajectory. Minutely, but it will.

So, the biggest factors still remain me and the ammo. The ammo is more consistent than I am, usually. Did you get enough sleep? Are you hungry? Is there adrenaline pumping? These are all things that can affect your shot which will matter alot more than how the hop up is adjusted. It's just like hunting animals...slow the breathing, and know when to pull the trigger. Always make like you only have one round in the rifle.

The shooter is always the weakest link...
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Old 04-08-2020, 11:25 AM   #11
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Exactly - its enough to give me a simple parameter to aim for this early in the process, but things will evolve long term. I could have a great setup for 80ft range - but things could fall apart quickly after that. I'm practicing within my means for now. I appreciate this is a long-term process.

I spent some time today shooting groupings of 5 at 60ft, measuring the horizontal and vertical distance away from centre of the grouping, and zeroing the scope according to that. Ended up with a grouping of 3 hitting dead centre within 1.5 inches, with 2 sadly flying off to the right.

I swapped over to the Action Army Teflon Cylinder after that, along with the spring guide, M150, and AirsoftPro Piston. No air leaks and no need for any teflon tape! Everything is greased up comfortably but the bolt pull still feels a little bit "scratchy" and I can't figure out where thats coming from. Perhaps I will swap out the old parts from the stock cylinder one at a time to see whats causing it, or perhaps it all just needs breaking in. Otherwise, it shoots great still and feels consistent - but I won't be able to chrono it yet.

Sounds like you really know what you're doing! The bore sight sounds really interesting - I'd love to get the rifle to that level of consistency.

Many thanks for all the help by the way. Going to spend some time testing over the next few days and I'll share results.
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Old 04-08-2020, 01:42 PM   #12
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I only know from experience...I'm years into this now. It's like anything...no substitute for 'hands on' hours, y'know?

Your groupings are just fine, in my opinion anyways. It adds a little challenge when there's a flyer. hee hee hee

As for the scratchy bolt, that seems to be an L96 'thing'. It appears to originate at the plastic spacer ring between the barrel and receiver...and just the way the whole cylinder moves through the rifle. I'm used to real steel bolts that cycle like they're on ball bearings, so needless to say, the L96 thing really irks me to the very core. I suppose I could get in there with some jeweller's rouge and a dremel to glass it all up but for some reason that just hasn't topped my priority list yet. I did polish quite a bit already so it's definitely better than stock, that's for sure! Way better than stock...but not epic.

Then again, we are cocking a spring and the sheer nature of that will produce a certain amount of side drag against the receiver. I reassembled the rifle dry after the last time I worked on the cylinder and noticed that there is a fair bit of rub when you pull the bolt back. Because of the crappy material of the reciever (pot metal, old hub caps, whatever) it seems to be more porous than steel and does 'scratch'. At the moment Ive gone to using an EP pin grease (lightly) that we use for excavators on the outside of the bolt and it`s helped a great deal. It's water proof, and doesn`t collect alot of dust but I do have to clean it every once in a while. Still better than scratch!! hehehehe

As for helping out, it`s what we do...
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Old 04-12-2020, 10:41 AM   #13
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I've spent the long weekend tinkering with the rifle and here are some of my results.

First things first: I got impatient waiting for my Maple Leaf bucking and nub to arrive so I installed a Guarder 70 degree AEG bucking and nub that I had lying around. It has two "fangs" on the contact patch and is consistently lifting 0.43g BBs with the 455mm barrel.

Installing the AA hop up was straight forward, although the C-type buckle wasn't marrying up perfectly with the cut on the Madbull barrel - it was too tight. In the end, I wrapped teflon tape over the leading edge of the bucking so that the buckle wouldn't damage the outside of the barrel as it was pushed on (and also potentially giving me a better air seal, not that it is needed).

I chrono'd both the AirsoftPro Hop w/ 499mm APS2 barrel and the AA Hop w/ 455mm barrels separately with 0.20g, 0.25g, 0.28g, 0.36g, 0.40g, and 0.43g BBs. Two observations were made at first: the rifle was shooting 570fps with 0.20s (way too hot for the UK), and there was a lot of joule creep on both set ups.

With the APS2 barrel build, I entered the FPS & Joule data into excel and plotted a 2nd order polynomial of best fit for Joules against BB weight. The stationary point of that curve (i.e. the BB weight that yielded the most joules) was at 0.365 grams - or 0.36g BBs in practical terms, and gave me around 3.43 joules. Applying the same maths to the AA Hop setup didn't work with the M150 spring as the line of best fit was increasing in curvature at the highest BB weight - so I'm not sure my data was great. The only conclusion I got from that was that 0.43g was the highest-energy BB I could use for that setup.

Because the rifle was so hot, I switched out to the stock spring, going down from 530fps with 0.20g BBs on the AA hop up build to around 516fps. Modelling the joule creep, I was still hitting 3.17J with 0.43g BBs.

To get the energy to decrease, I wrapped the piston in solder and 1 layer of electrical tape using trial-and-error to get the energy down to 2.32 Joules with 0.43g BBs. After around 100 shots the energy has dropped slightly to 1.89J which I think this is perhaps because solder and electical tape are bulging towards the front of the piston and creating friction on the inside of the cylinder. I'll just remove solder until the FPS is right.

Groupings wise - 19/20 shots hit within a 5cm radius circle at 60 feet, shooting from a seated position using the bipod. No flyers unlike the previous APS2 set up!

Testing range beyond 250 feet (somehow) and getting the FPS to 330-335 instead of 307 +/- 3 fps with 0.43g BBs are my next objectives.
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Old 04-13-2020, 12:03 PM   #14
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Well good sir, it would appear you're seriously zooming in on the objective! Carry on...
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Old 04-14-2020, 10:54 AM   #15
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Very nice. Good to know that you haven't given up on the l96 system unlike someone I know (me).

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