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Wolverine Reaper Inconsistencies & issues

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16K views 14 replies 4 participants last post by  silentwarrior  
S
#1 ·
Hello,

I wanted to go over and cover some issues and observations I have been having with the wolverine reaper system. In hopes of helping document the issue and hopefully solve and help anyone else.

I run the engine in a A&K SR25 Wolverine reg

Barrel hopup i will get to shortly, few key notes are throughout everything PSI and FPS has been very consistent proper alignment and positive engagement of the nozzle .5mm-1mm

Barrels i have been testing have been rhopped lapped ZCI Bores (tried two different barrels that work jsut fine on other guns), flat hopped buckings of G&G Green, Lonex 70D, madbull red shark, as well as a few other random ones and the additions of teflon tape to adjust feed lip pressure.

Results have been consistent FPS outpup but poor on the consistency shot to shot. Being someone who has done at least a thousand rhops (yes im not exaggerating) i have checked and recked, redone and even got a second barrel to test with. Checking various BBS and even different air sources (even though FPS was always consistent)

Results

Later using a endoscope i was able to observe what I believe is the true cause of the issue. The BB when chambered by the reaper is being placed about midway under the rhop patch when "adjusted for bb weight" this placement seems to be able to vary.

On the flip side when trying a standard bucking tuned it seems that the bb is forced thru the feed lips and more or less bounces off the bucking mound and then sits where its supposed to between lips and mound until you fire.

So clearly the nozzle has alot of forward force what are options we have to try and correct this? the common thought seems to be increase bucking lip tension or use like a madbull red. that dosn't do much the bb still comes into the chamber with too much force. add teflon tape to increase feed lip tension, thats a no go you cant really reduce or combat the force of the nozzle that much to get the bb to be placed into the chamber rather than "fired" by the violent nozzle.

After observing this i decided to do a little sketchy science experiment i held the trigger (so nozzle back) on the reaper and placed a given object in front of it, released the trigger and measured the distance the object moved, next i took a AEG with a titan and pre-cocking so i could also simulate nozzle being released from the rear position placing the same object in front of the nozzle. The results? The reaper propelled the object 6-8x further than the AEG nozzle and the aeg gearbox is technically releasing air at the end of movement where the reaper was purely energy of nozzle movement.

This is rather ridiculous a system heralded to be incredibly consistent and excellent in terms of placing BB into chamber, and the fact that its hearalded as very consistent for DMR use. Yet it applies what seems to be a ludicrous amount of force to the nozzle (that being said i really have no other HPA engines to compare it to.)

Help

IF you have a Reaper have you used it with a rhopped setup or experienced similar issues?

have you had to do any modifications to get proper consistent shot.

Any thoughts or ideas to reduce nozzle force?
 
#2 · (Edited)
If you are in a position to do so, try getting a barrel with a VSR10 window and using one of the hybrid/hotshot buckings. You'll probably have to do a teflon mod on the the bucking lips though, they are pretty loose by default. I have a feeling that the hopup's transition from bucking lips to hop up nub will be helpful for this problem. It will also take more pressure for a hotshot bucking to hop a BB the same amount as an rhop, which should also make the bb placement more consistent. The idea is that the pressure is still high enough that the bb won't roll past the contact mound, but the extended patch that runs from the lips to the mound will prevent the bb from bouncing around the way it would in a normal bucking.

The reaper I owned was plagued with problems being that it was a gen one unit. It had pretty bad play in the nozzle, and the alignment was inconsistent due to the varying magazine pressure when BB's press up against it. I ghetto modded my way around it by supergluing some electrical tape to the top of my hop up chamber, but now that you mentioned this feeding force issue, I think my issue might also have been the same as yours, and my solution indirectly helped in a minor way. This is speculation of course, but I have a feeling that the piece of electrical tape I glued to the top of the chamber might have rubbed against the nozzle and provided some element of friction that slowed down the nozzle ever so slightly. It's a long shot and purely guesswork on my part, but it could have been a factor.

I cannot provide a definite answer since I did all my upgrades and modifications at once, which included switching to the hybrid bucking, doing the teflon mod, and taping the hop up unit, but after these modifications, I did see a measurable improvement in my gun's performance. For reference, this was done in a VFC G28 with a prowin hop up. I originally had an rhopped prometheus 6.03 with a purple bucking, but ended up with a 6.03 action army 433mm VSR barrel with the older maple leaf hybrid bucking (hotshots were not out at the time). At the end of the day though, I never managed to get my reaper build performing as well as some of the fusion engine builds I've done. The engine is just really picky in my opinion...

Edit:
Out of curiosity, it would be interesting to see if the consistency improves if you switch to extremely heavy BB's and thus have to use more hop up. Something along the lines of enough hop up to lift a 0.48 or 0.5g?
 
S
#5 · (Edited)
whalesmash said:
...

Edit:
Out of curiosity, it would be interesting to see if the consistency improves if you switch to extremely heavy BB's and thus have to use more hop up. Something along the lines of enough hop up to lift a 0.48 or 0.5g?
Click to expand...
I don't have anything quite so heavy and being a DMR my plan wasn't going to consume a bit lighter round but yes it is a theory i can do my cambering tests with heaviest stuff i got which is a .4

i think in part is surface area based the rhop and i imagine either that other bucking you mentioned is more of a shallow or long surface area of less deflection. where it will stop the BB the problem is it stops it somewhere under the patch.

traditional mounds have to deflect further and are a steeper ramp up so hard stop.

in any case thanks for the feedback, i had also questioned wolverine several times on the subject with no response yet (which does not bode well)

I may need t do some further internal investigation on the reaper and maybe so far as modification

and @ Jeppe thanks for the additional reference and insight and for bringing up a new different company looks like interesting tech the raven.
 
J
#3 ·
Good research Sherlock.

Your experience with inaccuracy is not new. It plagues all airsoft HPA systems since polarstar first came out.
Here is a good video showing the issue:
Hopup direction all over the place, but FPS super stable.

The problem is that all of these systems are more or less copied from paintball systems which are used to deliver 10+ joule, run higher pressures and load-fits differently. They all run load-shoot as the same movement with wider margins.
Due to this, the airsoft systems that use the same movement are forced to load at full force. There is no in-between, unless they are specially build for it. But this is difficult.

A system to consider is the Raven HPA unit, which uses a solenoid operated spring-return nozzle for the nozzle. Not solenoid-valve, but directly the nozzle attached to electromechanical movement.
Or at least that is my understanding of it.

That would be a system superior to any other HPA system so far IMO.

Another idea is to try the polarstar setup and mess about with the nozzle side of it. Modify it somehow for slower nozzle movement.
 
J
#4 ·
It is also not uncommon to run into the same sort of issues when switching to a DSG build in a AEG. They load harder due to the nozzle cut.


Problem is also though, that you can get side effects from not having enough nozzle force to push consistently past the stack pressure. So it is not easy to find the right balance with nozzle.
 
S
#8 ·
I'll try and upload some of the video that i shot of some of my observations, i should really add in some of the endoscope footage and edit it some.


But i think the most interesting thing is I did some rudimental comparison pseudo scientific reguarding nozzle force, in a measurable way. (previously i was well less scientific)



i took a AEG gearbox with gate titan so i could pre cock and compare both the AEG and wolverine releasing the nozzle from a reward position to the forward position.

I placed gearbox shells on paper and marked the nozzle pint of retraction so both setups start fromt he same spot. my mass was a 6" length of 2x4 on edge centered on the nozzle. the nozzle was released and the results recorded and repeated 10 times in the distance the 2x4 was pushed.

the AEG shifted the 2x4 1.75 in and was technically also releasing a blast of air at full extension.

The wolverine reaper shifted the same 2x4 5.25in average and had a much higher standard of deviation.

I am without a doubt that this plays into issues people may have with this as that is a absolute insane amount of force, considering that you only have to overcome stack pressure, and bucking lip pressure and considering that the bb has less friction and less mass something to me at a high level doesn't add up.

looking at the internals of the wolvrine cage and nozzle setup I am having a hard time seeing any logical point of modification that could help reduce this nozzle energy

I really wish i had access to some lab equipment and force-plates not that wolverine would necessary listen or care, but would be great to know something more exact than just a comparison
 
S
#10 ·
I have not made any videos yet. I did play some with some ways to reduce or interact with nozzle pressure (basically two air ports on the body of the engine one controls the nozzle i hoped restricting would adjust the flow)

I have since bit the bullet and ordered a F2 so i do plan to do some further analysis and comparison, where i think having at least another comparison point would make it much more worth the time/effort to make a well documented analysis
 
S
#14 · (Edited)
Hi, another update.

Finally got myself a endoscope and corrected the alignment until its absolutely perfect.

I also changed my bucking to a Madbull red shark, and FPS inconsistency was terrible. After going over it with a sharp knife and cleaning it and flattening it, I managed to get 0.3 of FPS inconsistency. Its awesome.

However now I lost range. The Madbull red shark doesnt hop my BBs enough, compared to the prommy blue I am getting about 10 or so meters less range before it overhops.

At least the bbs are now hitting about (less than 40cm up/down at 50 or so meters) the same place every time but I cant get the same range as before. I still think I can get more consistency out of it my not using the bucking itself to hop the BBs and use a r-hop instead, this should also help with the grip problems.

The madbull red shark has this extra 3 tabs after the lips that hold the BB in place, I think this made all the difference.
 
S
#15 · (Edited)
Hi guys.

Another update.

Wolverine has released the Reaper Gen II with the nozzle return spring as suggested by "Jeppe".

Hopefully this will solve the problem for us.

It stands to reason that they will release a "bug fix" for existing Reaper Gen I users but that has not been confirmed just yet.

*Fingers crossed*

Edit: In "#LiveFromTheDen Ep. 82" I asked this question and the reply was: "its not a bug fix, its a technology upgrade". And that an upgrade kit will be released and that a further technical video would be released. Hopefully the kit isnt too expensive so that we aren't SOL.
Edit2: Seems like the Reaper Gen II upgrade kit is on the store now (https://shop.wolverineairsoft.com/reaper-gen2-upgrade) at almost the price of a new one. Guess its time to sell the Gen I while you can.
 
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