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-   -   How Much is “Too Much” for a BB (https://www.airsoftsniperforum.com/showthread.php?t=60425)

OneChickenArmy 08-06-2019 05:42 PM

How Much is “Too Much” for a BB
 
Ok, so I was poking around and I found .68g bbs from Airsoft Atlanta (made by HPA). They are called, “The Rock”. These heavy little guys are a whopping 25 bucks for a 50 count bag. That plus shipping makes each shot probably close to 60-75 cents (US). So, my simple question is this: how much is “too much” to pay for a BB?

Masada 08-06-2019 06:17 PM

"Too much" is going to be completely dependent on the buyer. For most, ya that's probably too much for bbs, but for some it might be fine.

I can tell you that those bbs are ceramic, and technically they aren't bbs. They are bearing balls that just happen to be the same size as a standard airsoft bb (5.953mm). As a result, they are going to be much much higher quality than any plastic bb.

My buddy (mwrose777) bought a couple bags of them to try out too. They are perfectly fine, though I think a little pricey. I put my calipers on them and they all measure fine. Put them on a scale too and got 0.66g each, a little less than what they advertise.

If you are ok with the extra risk, you could get them direct from a number of chinese suppliers for $0.35-$0.40 a round, but you'd have to know exactly what you want and be willing to deal with the hassle and potential problems.

MagicMarker 08-06-2019 06:20 PM

Yeah they're going to be .66g if they're 5.95mm

And yep, OP yours is a question you'll have to answer for yourself.
But, how much better are they than standard plastic BBs? They pretty much blow them out of the water. They're also far heavier.
[note I don't know what grade those BBs are, but I'd expect them to perform close to the BB Bastard .66s, or potentially closer to the .69s included]
https://i.imgur.com/lUEv1YO.png
https://www.airsoftsniperforum.com/3...-analysis.html
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...#gid=990361315

cetane 08-06-2019 10:12 PM

Iirc, i paid $0.20 a piece for the 0.66g ceramics careful was selling a few years ago. They are nothing more than 15/64” ceramic ball bearings. Very good quality. I got 1000 pieces I think? Still have like ~400. They sure are quiet when shooting.

Masada 08-06-2019 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cetane (Post 406005)
Iirc, i paid $0.20 a piece for the 0.66g ceramics careful was selling a few years ago. They are nothing more than 15/64” ceramic ball bearings. Very good quality. I got 1000 pieces I think? Still have like ~400. They sure are quiet when shooting.

Personally, I'd pay double (and do) to never have to deal with him again. He still owes me like $400 in bbs alone, not to mention all the other stuff he never delivered on.

So now I just buy better quality stuff direct from China.

Sodium 08-07-2019 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Masada (Post 406007)
Quote:

Originally Posted by cetane (Post 406005)
Iirc, i paid $0.20 a piece for the 0.66g ceramics careful was selling a few years ago. They are nothing more than 15/64” ceramic ball bearings. Very good quality. I got 1000 pieces I think? Still have like ~400. They sure are quiet when shooting.

Personally, I'd pay double (and do) to never have to deal with him again. He still owes me like $400 in bbs alone, not to mention all the other stuff he never delivered on.

So now I just buy better quality stuff direct from China.

Where do you buy them from specifically?

AccurateDMD 08-07-2019 08:19 AM

What kind of power level do you have to be at to even use these effectively? 4J? 4.5?

When they become more expensive than actual live ammo, which these definitely do, I say it's no longer worth the cost.

john3302 08-07-2019 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneChickenArmy (Post 405979)
Ok, so I was poking around and I found .68g bbs from Airsoft Atlanta (made by HPA). They are called, “The Rock”. These heavy little guys are a whopping 25 bucks for a 50 count bag. That plus shipping makes each shot probably close to 60-75 cents (US). So, my simple question is this: how much is “too much” to pay for a BB?

I guess it would depend on how much do you gain in accuracy and range?
Just .1 %? Then its too much.

Plus the increase would have to be measured scientifically in a vice in calm conditions. I would think as some point the advantage of a heavier bb would peak with the extreme loss of fps.

Has anyone tested .49 bb's and above in a vice, in calm conditions?

Plazmaburn 08-07-2019 09:18 AM

From my experience, IF and I do mean IF you are able to have the power level required for ceramics, then you should consider them as there is a pretty big difference in performance from what I have seen. But your build needs to be top tier. When your pitching a BB out past 350, 400ft. (My longest confirmed is 423Ft. VSR-X, 387Ft. with a "normal" VSR.)

That said, to really get the most out of a ceramic, 5J is about the best spot for them. Though I do not know too many places that allow that, here in the States. Mind you most major sites require biodegradable BBs, which ceramics are not. So you are already being an asshole for using these. At the power level to get the most out of them, again, makes you kind of an asshole.

As for the "is it too much?" Depends on the individual. For me, I do not see them as "worth it" if your gun is not up to the task. Sadly, most builds are not.

Masada 08-07-2019 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodium (Post 406021)
Where do you buy them from specifically?

I'll PM you a link. I'm not sure if we are allowed to post links to commercial sites here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AccurateDMD (Post 406025)
What kind of power level do you have to be at to even use these effectively? 4J? 4.5?

When they become more expensive than actual live ammo, which these definitely do, I say it's no longer worth the cost.

I wouldn't bother unless you are at least in the mid 3's. Any lower and the travel time is just too long for me at least. I've also run into problems hopping them at lower power levels, but that could just be my setups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by john3302 (Post 406029)
I guess it would depend on how much do you gain in accuracy and range?
Just .1 %? Then its too much.

Plus the increase would have to be measured scientifically in a vice in calm conditions. I would think as some point the advantage of a heavier bb would peak with the extreme loss of fps.

Has anyone tested .49 bb's and above in a vice, in calm conditions?

I think one of their biggest strengths is the stability in windy conditions. It takes a lot more wind to move them off course.

The range increase is significant in the right setups too, though I haven't done a bunch of comparisons. Generally the guns have to be tweaked just to hop the ceramics.

whalesmash 08-07-2019 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plazmaburn (Post 406033)
-snip-

That said, to really get the most out of a ceramic, 5J is about the best spot for them. Though I do not know too many places that allow that, here in the States. Mind you most major sites require biodegradable BBs, which ceramics are not. So you are already being an asshole for using these. At the power level to get the most out of them, again, makes you kind of an asshole.

As for the "is it too much?" Depends on the individual. For me, I do not see them as "worth it" if your gun is not up to the task. Sadly, most builds are not.

Pretty much this. The people out there who are running Novy's FF system already noted that their rifles are pretty much shooting turtles out of their rifles. Without a higher joule limit, it's really questionable as to whether or not this is even practical to consider. At my own home field, the limit is a pretty meager 2.3 joules/500fps (0.2G). For my own tastes, I usually like to draw the line at 310ish fps which means the heaviest I will go is around 0.45, occasionally 0.48. Even then, it can feel like I miss shots just because my BB's take too long to travel.

OneChickenArmy 08-07-2019 02:36 PM

I wasn’t thinking of buying them, I was just looking to start a conversation. I’m also at a 500-550fps with .20s so I definitely couldn’t use these too well. I also had no idea thy were ceramic, which makes them unusable at my field even though the item description says they will decompose.

MagicMarker 08-07-2019 04:39 PM

The concept of biodegradability with regards to ceramics is odd, because...it's kind of like asking if rocks are biodegradable. No? Yes? I don't even know what definitions we're working off of- not to mention the fact that BB manufacturers don't operate on the same standards of biodegradability...
Side note (I sense "unusable at my field" applies here...):
The hardness of ceramics seems to be the real concern- and they aren't actually really that hard, comparatively. Using my data, the softest plastic as a baseline- the hardest plastic is 75% harder already, with silica being 13 points higher, and ceramic another 12 points.

Plazmaburn 08-07-2019 06:17 PM

Well there are different formulations for the binder. But according to HPA, via a facebook post on july 9th, they are Bio Neutral. Which is different from bio degradable.

Most of the ceramics people order tend to be Grade 10 bearings. Which if you look at MagicMarker's BB analysis thread. (Which you should! and the graphic above.) The grade 10 bearings are in another league in terms of consistency compared to "airsoft BBs."

Considering the amount of time, energy, and money, we put into our rifles to build them into the most consistent shooting rifles possible, why would you feed your gun cheap inconsistent ammo? You don't. You use the most consistent ammo you can. Ceramics trump all the others. Period. That consistency comes at a premium though.

Hardness is important. (Sorry running out of time before I have to leave for work. I will try to expand on this if someone does not beat me to it.)

AccurateDMD 08-07-2019 06:49 PM

I don't think anyone is saying using 'cheap' ammo is a good idea on heavily teched rifles. The issue is when you're comparing a BLS BB or even a Maruzen SGM bb to a ceramic bearing is there a difference other than weight?

If you look at MagicMarkers data absolutely! Does those laboratory measured differences translate to a difference in the level of performance that is worth the cost? Like anything else in airsoft you're really getting into diminishing returns.

The main advantage of these is the weight, and the ability to sling them further if you have an appropriate power level (which most can't use on their fields). The consistency is second in importance in that case.

But let's say you had a .43g ceramic vs a BLS BIO .43g. Does anyone really think you're going to see an appreciable, quantifiable, and statistical improvement in grouping sizes at 100ft? 150ft? xxxft?

I don't.


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