[MagicMarker]

Taking a relatively rudimentary look at my rifle's power curve, I noticed something interesting.

The test was performed with my +/-0FPS rifle, tuning the hop up to shoot *relatively* flat with a given BB source, before measuring an individual BB's weight and firing that BB through the chronograph. I strongly believe the biggest (only significant?) source of error here to be the careless tuning of the hop-up.

During the test, increasing the weight to the Proball .45g BB, I was greeted with over-hop that I had to tune down- even though the previous BB was lighter and flying straight. The results then showed (again, imperfect due to carelessness) that the Proball had a bit of a spike in power compared to its weight.
While the "spike" itself could probably be ignored as being within error, the drastic friction increase with Proball BBs was readily apparent (the matte surface is even visible and noticeable by touch alone); coupled with the possible power spike, I wonder if I was seeing power increase coming from the 'pressure lock' of the BB being less inclined to release from the bucking.
It's worth noting that my data shows the Proballs as being some of the smallest BBs measured- meaning they should actually gain less energy from the air source compared to larger BBs of equal properties.
I may have to revisit this later, employing much finer hop-up tuning to further investigate the 'pressure lock'- I have a few other BBs with obvious matte finish. Too bad I can't formally measure the finish.

I also think it's worth discussing whether or not BB polish is even a good thing. I could see matte finish / consistent roughness creating a miniature version of golf ball dimples- meaning far more range...hmm...

EDIT: PSI is wrong in the image, should be 160...if anyone gave even a fraction of a heck.

 

[Zero Roaster]

Taking a relatively rudimentary look at my rifle's power curve, I noticed something interesting.

The test was performed with my +/-0FPS rifle, tuning the hop up to shoot *relatively* flat with a given BB source, before measuring an individual BB's weight and firing that BB through the chronograph. I strongly believe the biggest (only significant?) source of error here to be the careless tuning of the hop-up.

During the test, increasing the weight to the Proball .45g BB, I was greeted with over-hop that I had to tune down- even though the previous BB was lighter and flying straight. The results then showed (again, imperfect due to carelessness) that the Proball had a bit of a spike in power compared to its weight.
While the "spike" itself could probably be ignored as being within error, the drastic friction increase with Proball BBs was readily apparent (the matte surface is even visible and noticeable by touch alone); coupled with the possible power spike, I wonder if I was seeing power increase coming from the 'pressure lock' of the BB being less inclined to release from the bucking.
It's worth noting that my data shows the Proballs as being some of the smallest BBs measured- meaning they should actually gain less energy from the air source compared to larger BBs of equal properties.
I may have to revisit this later, employing much finer hop-up tuning to further investigate the 'pressure lock'- I have a few other BBs with obvious matte finish. Too bad I can't formally measure the finish.

I also think it's worth discussing whether or not BB polish is even a good thing. I could see matte finish / consistent roughness creating a miniature version of golf ball dimples- meaning far more range...hmm...

EDIT: PSI is wrong, should be 160...if anyone gave even a fraction of a heck.

All of that makes sense. As I keep harping about...the elasticity of a gas and its ability to store potential as it's compressed, even if it's for a fraction of a second. If you want to get microscopic about it, it becomes an amplitude vs. duration thing. Never mind the nitty gritty.:doh:

The polish, or lack thereof is double edged as all great things are. Yes, the hop would grab it, but you have to wonder if the gain from the hop is offset by the friction as it goes down the barrel. If the barrel is a hard plished surface like stainless, then in reality the friction should be just about negligible, but it's there.

I love this...more to think about. :shot:

 

[wyz2285]

About that mate finish, I currently do that to all my heavy bbs dedicated to sniping:

What I discovered was, all bbs have a coating of some sorts, and that coating hides the imperfections of the surface finish. If you deep polish it (remove the coating, then the imperfections), the mate surface is not only more consistent but also allows the bucking to grab better the bbs.
The downside is the feeding. For bolt action is not much of an issue, but for high rof AEGs it's problematic.

 

[MagicMarker]

About that mate finish, I currently do that to all my heavy bbs dedicated to sniping:

What I discovered was, all bbs have a coating of some sorts, and that coating hides the imperfections of the surface finish. If you deep polish it (remove the coating, then the imperfections), the mate surface is not only more consistent but also allows the bucking to grab better the bbs.
The downside is the feeding. For bolt action is not much of an issue, but for high rof AEGs it's problematic.

I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying you've seen the originally-matte BBs grip even better after polishing? This doesn't make sense to me, as I was under the impression the polish you were performing was the same polish a majority of BBs I've looked at have out of the bag (and in my experience above, the matte gripped better)- for example Geoff's, Novritsch, and BLS (from memory at the moment, at least) seem to be fairly shiny/polished out of the bag, and I can't imagine much changing with a wash and more polish.
What BBs did you look at?
Also, how did you perform the polishing? And what did you use?
Also also, you mean to say the polished BBs tend to feed worse? That's unexpected to me...hm.

 

[wyz2285]

Never used originally matte bbs, only regular.
Currently I'm inclined that most bbs, the final finish is not polish (as polish by removing material), but bath in a lacquer of sorts (same motion as polishing, just rotating them in a drum, but adding the layer of lacquer).
What I did was actually making shiny bbs into matte bbs, which gave better results, but the friction make them feed worse in AEG mid caps.

 

[Zero Roaster]

Traditional hop materials my tend to let a bb slide, which is why I don't use them. Those plastic infused rubbers (especially the harder ones) don't impart nearly enough traction on a polished surface. Friction coefficient is eomthing that's rarely visited when discussing a hop up patch, but it is absolutely critical. My hop patches stick like glue...ok, maybe not glue, but you catch my drift. If the material permits, it'll grab a slick surface just as well as a rough one...much like a drag slick on pavement. If there's no medium in between (moisture, etc) it has an extremely high friction coefficient and grips like crazy! You want as much contact surface as possible between the BB and the patch. If the patch is soft enough to conform to the curve of the BB, it will grip more area and thus, impart a ridiculous amount of spin.

Polishing is super important in AEG's, especially with a healthy ROF. It helps everything go down through the feed much easier and leaves virtually no residue. Same goes for copper jacket vs. lead in real steel. The lead is a lubricant, but it gets into everything and can hang up on edges, etc...but I digress (thinks back to Marlin XT with feed issues and commences to fume profusely).

So, if I could choose between polished or not, polished everytime. Not only for lack of residue and feed consistency, but I would think it would be less prone to friction as it's huffing down the barrel towards freedom...

 

[Sodium]

Have you truly put the pro ball matte finisb bbs to the test down range? Id be curious to see how they function compared to normal polished bls bbs.

 

[redmoon3580]

Where are you guys getting these matte/unpolished BBs? Proballs are advertised as double polished, and I can't find a source for proslick (Golden ball) matte BBs.

 

[MagicMarker]

Never used originally matte bbs, only regular.
Currently I'm inclined that most bbs, the final finish is not polish (as polish by removing material), but bath in a lacquer of sorts (same motion as polishing, just rotating them in a drum, but adding the layer of lacquer).
What I did was actually making shiny bbs into matte bbs, which gave better results, but the friction make them feed worse in AEG mid caps.

Thanks for clarifying. This does make sense to me. Could you share your methods of polishing?

Traditional hop materials my tend to let a bb slide, which is why I don't use them. Those plastic infused rubbers (especially the harder ones) don't impart nearly enough traction on a polished surface. Friction coefficient is eomthing that's rarely visited when discussing a hop up patch, but it is absolutely critical. My hop patches stick like glue...ok, maybe not glue, but you catch my drift. If the material permits, it'll grab a slick surface just as well as a rough one...much like a drag slick on pavement. If there's no medium in between (moisture, etc) it has an extremely high friction coefficient and grips like crazy! You want as much contact surface as possible between the BB and the patch. If the patch is soft enough to conform to the curve of the BB, it will grip more area and thus, impart a ridiculous amount of spin.

You were the one trying to separate contact patch from nozzle seal right? What were you using for the patch- liquid setting PU or something? Is the reason they don't make entire buckings out of that because of bad seal? Are there any other down sides to your patch method? I'd be afraid of rips from an ultra-grippy softer material.

Have you truly put the pro ball matte finisb bbs to the test down range? Id be curious to see how they function compared to normal polished bls bbs.

No actually, I'll try to do that next weekend- though that will be after cutting/re-crowning/re-porting my barrel, so I'll have to be careful to ensure I compare the new barrel to the old via known BBs before evaluating the Proballs.

Where are you guys getting these matte/unpolished BBs? Proballs are advertised as double polished, and I can't find a source for proslick (Golden ball) matte BBs.

My bag of Proballs does say "double polished"- this could be directly related to wyz2285's suggestion- that there is another variable at play here other than 'polish' (and my possible misuse of the term convoluted things):
- Truly polished: Smoothing via removal of material (Proball, Bioshot)
- Default: Smoothing via coating material (most BBs)
From here on out I'm going to embrace the above as a very likely reality, and will do better to differentiate.
Back to the point: My Proballs and [off the top of my head, without thoroughly inspecting all my BBs] Bioshots seem to have a visually matte finish, which reflects less light than normal- they cannot be considered shiny at all. This may be due to actual polishing, as opposed to a more common method of "polishing" most brands employ (coating with material, not polishing via buffing material away). It's also entirely possible that's wrong and there's another explanation...
I didn't notice anyone bring up Goldenball or Proslick BBs, but my Goldenballs look shiny similar to 90% of average BBs- note my bag is old as hell with the simple yellow sticker, no fancy aesthetic you see on all the current search results for 'Goldenball BB'.

 

[Zero Roaster]

You were the one trying to separate contact patch from nozzle seal right? What were you using for the patch- liquid setting PU or something? Is the reason they don't make entire buckings out of that because of bad seal? Are there any other down sides to your patch method? I'd be afraid of rips from an ultra-grippy softer material.

No sir, that wasn't me. The patch I use is food grade silicone tubing. It's very tacky, pressure and temperature resistant, and has no memory (you can run a zillion BB's through it and it won't deform to a specific pressure point). Now when I put the bucking rubber on I do make sure that the patch itself isn't stuck to the rubber bucking...that way it can move freely under the nub. Did that make any sense at all?

 

[wyz2285]

Man I use these food grade silicon tubes too! They grab so well and it's so cheap lol. Tricky part is they are so soft the nub need to be perfect, if not there will be curving bbs. Once done right though...
I just pour around 500 bbs into a glass jar (like empty jam jar), one tea spoon of fine car polish (the one for finishing), add water until it barely covers all the bbs. Close it up, 60 rpm on the lathe for a few hours.
Tooth paste work too.
Feeding problems apart, You can turn mid range heavy bbs (below 20 euros for 1000 rounds plus 0,40g bbs) into top shooters, so far I have better results in my polished than my friends Geoffs and Novs.

 

[Zero Roaster]

Man I use these food grade silicon tubes too! They grab so well and it's so cheap lol. Tricky part is they are so soft the nub need to be perfect, if not there will be curving bbs. Once done right though...

You said it, the nub has to be PERFECT. :tup: ...and yes, it's worth the work. Absolutely. Just a tiny bit of hop pressure and the BB's curve upwards like crazy. I'm still waiting for the hop in my Thompson to settle down...but the range is so good I don't want to fool with it until it's broken in and levelled out. Right now it's a tiny and loud DMR. :lmao:

 

[Jeppe]

You were the one trying to separate contact patch from nozzle seal right? What were you using for the patch- liquid setting PU or something? Is the reason they don't make entire buckings out of that because of bad seal? Are there any other down sides to your patch method? I'd be afraid of rips from an ultra-grippy softer material.

That was me come on!! :/
http://instagr.am/p/BoTnAqxg0ZE%2F/ This is how the finished product looks, bar ugly casting of the patch.

In short yes it's silicone, but getting it consistently right takes research and tooling.
Generally they will last forever and lift anything.

It is extremely complicated compared to mass manufacturing a bucking that'll go onto anything. It's more that than the material for a manufacturer. But material plays into it as well when you are casting buckings...

Also i'm starting to think that debridged works better than bridged by default at this point, simply because the BB is held in place before firing.

My next step is creating a hopup that allows seperate pressure lock adjustment and backspin amount. So first you adjust the pressure lock for optimal FPS/piston braking in your setup, then you adjust the amount of backspin. It would be a killer feature for 300mm VSR's.

 

[MagicMarker]

I just pour around 500 bbs into a glass jar (like empty jam jar), one tea spoon of fine car polish (the one for finishing), add water until it barely covers all the bbs. Close it up, 60 rpm on the lathe for a few hours.
Tooth paste work too.
Feeding problems apart, You can turn mid range heavy bbs (below 20 euros for 1000 rounds plus 0,40g bbs) into top shooters, so far I have better results in my polished than my friends Geoffs and Novs.

Wish I had a lathe! We'll see if tumbling a container in the dryer works in terms of actual results aaand not damaging the machine itself or being horrendously annoying...

That was me come on!! :/
[...]
Also i'm starting to think that debridged works better than bridged by default at this point, simply because the BB is held in place before firing.

My bad! Haha
Hm, I was under the impression the BB was held by the bucking fairly well regardless of bridge. I'm sure it differs based on bucking, barrel, nozzle, etc.- I'll have to investigate my setup. I fully expect that to be an issue- I would not be okay with my BB wobbling around between nozzle and bucking patch before firing...

 

[Jeppe]

It's hard to tell. It would depend on nozzle seating depth as well. More tests would be needed.

 

[ArcAngel]

So I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that on a VSR if your using a bucking that requires a bridgeless barrel like a maple then the BB isn't floating around. NOW with that said, for AEGs its a different story. BBs tend to have some float even with the maples. That was what the Hot Shot bucking and CJ AEG bridgeless barrels were all about . This is one of the REAL reasons R-hops work so well. You don't get range with an R-hop or even a Maple for that matter, that's not possible given a fixed muzzle velocity. What you get is repeatability , which translates to accuracy with translates to much much more "effective" range.

This is actually one of the airsoft mechcanics that translates somewhat into real steal. In a real riffle , there is something called head space. Head space is the amount of free bore between the jacket of the bullet when it's locked in a breach , and the where the rifling starts. In airsoft this would be similar to the distance between where the BB sits with the nozzle closed and the nub of the hop up rubber. The hop up nub being the Stabilizing mechanism of airsoft and the rifling being the Stabilizing mechanism of firearms. That gap has an effect on accuracy in both cases. For BEST accuracy you want little to no gap. In a firearm that gap is there for a few reasons, one of the main being the ability use different kinds of ammo, it gets complicated, we don't have that problem here

Since our ammo is round and thus always the same shape, perfectly round, we don't need that gap, so for best accuracy you want the nozzle to push the round to the same place on the hop up each time already engaging the nub or patch. Go backwards in the system and that's why nozzles with stronger springs work better, but that's getting to far off track and could be a post onto itself.

Bottom line, no gap and no space to float around is the best way to go for us here.

Is this making sense or am I high?

 

[Jeppe]

So I can tell you with a high degree of certainty that on a VSR if your using a bucking that requires a bridgeless barrel like a maple then the BB isn't floating around.

...This is one of the REAL reasons R-hops work so well. You don't get range with an R-hop or even a Maple for that matter, that's not possible given a fixed muzzle velocity. What you get is repeatability , which translates to accuracy with translates to much much more "effective" range.

That's what we're saying. We're talking about bridged barrels not being able to hold the BB in place.

Rhop doesn't do this either, especially in AEG. It's still a bridged barrel. Rhop/whichever full contact patch is actually worse for BB retaining due to the light pressure lock.

I've tested this specifically and if you use a light BB you get better accuracy with normal buckings.

Rhop / wide contact patch does ONE thing: More backspin with less pressure lock (= less piston braking = higher FPS).

 

[wyz2285]

Totally agree. However if you mill the hop window on the barrel and left the bridge very thin (0,5mm +-) plus some work done with the nozzle and tappet plate, R-hop/flat hop will have a good chance of be able to hold the bb, without the risk of bucking fold in with bridge less barrel and bucking.
At least that's what I do and what I said in the video I posted about nozzles and tappet plates.

 

[Zero Roaster]

Y'know, this is one area where I'm not so picky. To be honest, the whole chambering process is so quick, it's not like it rattles around in there before hitting the patch. The BB gets shoved into the chamber by the nozzle so it's already moving forward when the air shot hits...I wonder if it's so minute that it even matters? I'll have to study it closely to see how much of an interruption in the flow of the ammo there actually is. Hmmmm...

 

[Jeppe]

You could do a 50rps AEG and it would still matter, imo. It doesn't "rattle" around, it just doesn't settle in the same position before being fired.
The closer the BB sits to the main pressure point, the more stable it is before shooting, i think.

Totally agree. However if you mill the hop window on the barrel and left the bridge very thin (0,5mm +-) plus some work done with the nozzle and tappet plate, R-hop/flat hop will have a good chance of be able to hold the bb, without the risk of bucking fold in with bridge less barrel and bucking.
.

One of my ideas was to create a groove on the inside of the bridge, so when a silicone patch is cast into the window, it'll let the patch run under the bridge and help hold the BB.