[reezo]

Hi everyone,

I would love to create a AEG platform that is capable of shooting accurately and also looks and feels in a way that some people could make it fall into the "Training Weapon" category.​

Required features:
- Assault Rifle (probably M4A1)
- Highest quality, realistic externals
- Highest degree of accuracy
- No FPS limitations since this will not be used for skirmishes
- Realistic functions (no dry fire, realistic Rate of Fire, etc)
- Blowback/recoil not mandatory

The idea is to create something that equals or surpasses "the idea" for which a Systema PTW was made. No time or budget limits. If you think I should stick with a Systema PTW, feel free to tell me. I read one can start a custom project that equals if not surpasses a Systema PTW for the same amount of money or even less, so that is why I am asking. Plus, it would be a nice DIY project and there is nothing like shaping your rifle to excellence.

I know this does not precisely match the topic of "sniper rifles" but since I am going to make an high quality AEG it will be possible to adapt this into the DMR category and it will still be a very accurate platform. I believe this might interest some of the people looking into high quality custom work to reach a DMR level (which, regardless of the purpose, is a category well known for the time, money and efforts required by the owner of the rifle).

Phase 1. Choosing the right "shell" rifle to start with

What do you guys recommend in your experience?

Thanks for your time and support,
Reezo

 

[Cheese Man]

Go classic. If you are going to completely overhaul everything, and you have an air rig, or will, go classic. Find parts, get parts made, buy an LRB cut for it, etc. etc. etc.

That would also give you blowback, but it would be a lot more reliable.

 

[reezo]

Go classic. If you are going to completely overhaul everything, and you have an air rig, or will, go classic. Find parts, get parts made, buy an LRB cut for it, etc. etc. etc.

That would also give you blowback, but it would be a lot more reliable.

So you would say since I have a gas rifle already I might go the GBB way for the project? I thought about that but I am kinda puzzled that I still won't have anything skirmishable at all in most situations..a G&P or WE gas M4 would be great as well.

I got discouraged or anyway influenced by some airsoft store employees would kept say a GBB rifle is mostly for someone who has two-three rifles already and wants something for the cool factor and nice recoil feeling..

My idea was that, since I have a gas rifle already, keeping everything gas-related would help most of the elements/tools/equipment I have..

Ah, the puzzle

 

[Cheese Man]

No. Not a modern GBBR, a classic. Buy them here, http://classicairsoft.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?42-Classic-Arms-Bazaar, and read up a little. Once many people go classic, they never go back.

 

[reezo]

Thanks CM! Heading right there, apologies for having misunderstood the term, at first. I now get it, it is a category of its own.

I've come to understand that one thing will be a skirmishable gun and another one the project gun..am I right or do you guys have experience of gas/GBBRs/classics that go into skirmishes? Probably private, milsim events?

Thanks for the info, I am going to read a lot and try to avoid obvious questions, I know I've probably asked some already *gasp*

 

[metallicafatcat]

If your going AEG, go either G&P, VFC or LCT. They're all to TM spec and have excellent exteriors prats. The only thing I'm going to say about Classics is make sure you have somewhere close by to fill them, don't be like my friend...

 

[reezo]

I was getting attracted by an AEG for the fact that they would make a nice contrast with the Tanaka M40A1: sniper rifle, bolt action, gas, loud and proud. M4 AEG: good casual shooting, skirmishable if chance arises, not affected by weather too much etc.

I think you get the picture..

I remember when I first saw a Systema PTW I wanted one because it looked like all other AEGs were inferior in comparison, but then after a lot of reading and watching videos etc. it turned out there are other more rewarding ways. I then thought: "wait..no recoil/blowback..how can that be a Training Weapon of some sort?" so I started looking into GBB rifles, but then it seems that all the limitations that a sniper rifle/single shot/bolt action can life with are going to be an annoyance in an "assault/dynamic" style of weapon.

As you can see I am still navigating into the seas of doubt..which is good, makes me absorb more information

 

[explosive]

I would highly recommend a KWA SR12, or even SR10. With just some slight modifications
you'll have an AEG that equals if not better than some thousand dollar builds.

I have an SR10 with PDI barrel shooting approx. 400fps and honestly it performs better than most guns on the field. Take my word for it or not...
There's a couple minor things to be aware of if you build a 500fps plus KWA dmr though.
Like the 2Gx bucking is not suitable or ideal for over 450 fps.

G&G M14's with some minor work can easily shoot 200-220 feet accurately. Just this past Saturday I was consistently pinging the back side of a standard mailbox at 189ft with .28 bb's.
I can hit a person at 250-270ish feet with the same rifle. I'm talking dead on accuracy with in
200ft. I barely upgraded a thing, just some internal parts that lacked in quality. Easy build with
satisfying results. Now if you put anything more than a M120 spring into a G&G M14, then you should plan on purchasing a few more upgraded internals for it (gears, torque motor, maybe battery).

I still own a lot of different manufacture's guns. I've owned even more.
KWA's latest is by far my go to gun.

G&P's are damn nice. To me need some tuning and usually an overhaul to get them shooting
well. There's little quirks with G&P M4's and G&P's across the board that annoy me.
One of my G&P's after upgrading it's gears & wiring has been a great gun.

I have little experience with G&G M4's, but just purchased a G&G M733 this past week & more than likely will be opening things up and upgrading a couple things.

One of the most impressive DMR's I've seen - been shot by was a WE EBR M14. Now having said that, a KWA SR12 performs nearly the same stock. Upgraded I'd take the SR12 over a WE M14.
Those WE M14's are fun to shoot though.

The owner is the guy standing in the background. Some kid wanted to admire the gun...camera guy was making his rounds.

The dead of night, playing chem light football as our mission. I hear a "clink clink" and then hear a "whack....whack". Yep, I was hit...shot my buddy too.

back on topic:
My top choices would be a
KWA SR12
KWA Mk12 (custom build)
G&G M14

You can get a G&P, Classic Army, G&G. Dumped a lot of money into it
and it will be a damn nice gun. Just the options above will not cost you as much in upgrading and perform the same or better than $1000 AEG's.

IMO

 

[reezo]

Explosive, thanks for the extensive report. I can feel yours are not just words put in a post to give an approximate direction..I can somewhat feel the "been there, done that" factor that you and the other guys are really helping me with!

I don't think many stores have KWA in stock here in Italy but hey, I have my sources and "hard to find" usually means something good to me

I've seen some impressive groupings from stock KWAs..they were getting my attention already.

You guys seem pretty much all implying I should basically stay away from Systema PTWs. I know this has been talked to boredom, but I need to get this brand name out of my head.

How does an upgraded Systema PTW compare to an upgraded KWA SR12 or other non-PTW high end brand, in terms of accuracy and reliability? I am not interested in FPS as I noticed most of these guns will reach the same values, but power is nothing compared to accuracy, which is where the money, and the satisfaction of that perfect shot, come from

I am getting my parts list ready, I think the KWA is going to to be a good choice, I got lots of positive reports, not one con.

 

[hoggie]

You can drop a M150 (CONFIRMED BY KWA) into the KWA SR-12/10. I have one and not one issue.

 

[reezo]

Thanks. I am heading in the KWA direction. I've just been brainwashed by some PTW users who kept telling me the accuracy of a stock PTW outperforms other AEGs, plus they've thrown in some opinions about the PTW sounding awesome and spiritually rewarding, when fired... I have some serious doubts considering how much into upgrading one has to be to get his rifle to an outstanding level..and you just cannot do it with an expensive PTW..but that might just be my guess.

I should just hold both in my hands and fire them for a day or so to get the feeling

Also getting a PTW would derail the purpose of a project gun, because I will be thinking twice about putting my hands into something so expensive..the only reason I would get one is if it was "unreachable" in terms of quality/feel/durability/accuracy from all the other brands..which I was led to think it's not true.

 

[explosive]

reezo - Sorry I failed to notice you are in Italy!
Other AEG's can be upgraded to perform like a stock KWA, but KWA's stock are outstanding for the price.

As for Systema PTW's. I have some experience with them and Celcius PTW's.
Both have that nice feature with their cylinders. Both Celcius's that I have messed with
pretty much always had issues from the start.
The Systema PTW I messed with had an upgraded barrel and a red cylinder in it.
Was shooting high 400's and was nice. Yet a KWA with a new spring installed for half the money
would equal of exceed a Systema's performance.
I have heard straight from people who have owned and dealt with Systema's that they are hit and miss as far as internals go. Though I've seen a local player with his new KWA KM4 ris (stock) and the Sector gear snapped on him after a couple games. He was completely disappointed with KWA's.

My SR10 has probably 70,000 bb's through it. I got it December 2009 and in 2010 I was out 2-3 weekend's every month that year. Both at larger Ops and multiple local scrimmages (using high mags for fun). Last February (2011) I noticed I was loosing FPS drastically. I opened up the mechbox, and only replaced the piston head o-ring. FPS shot back up to 380fps. Then I opened
things up again and installed a new spring to bring it back to 400-410fps.

To me, KWA earned my respect. I can't bring myself to DMR my SR10, because it's a great assault rifle (gun).

If G&G M14's are easier to come by in Italy there's another solid option for you. Tons of intel on them here in these forums and across the net. I will say this though. an SR12 and M14 will handle differently in the field. Many want to know which shoots better, but honestly it should equally important which one feels right in your hands. Though an M14 will need more internal upgrading, it is usually not a $1000 build when all is said and done.

hoggie: I seldom mention a M150 in a KWA, because then everybody seems to add that you need to upgrade all the internals and add buffer pads etc etc. I know two people who have installed M150's into their KWA's and use them like mad men. Full-auto - everything. One of them re-opened his mechbox and said everything looks great after a few bags of bb's. The other guy is still going with no issues. I'm not a fan of M150 springs in any AEG, but I've seen a couple KWA's handle them just fine.

Thanks. I am heading in the KWA direction. I've just been brainwashed by some PTW users who kept telling me the accuracy of a stock PTW outperforms other AEGs, plus they've thrown in some opinions about the PTW sounding awesome and spiritually rewarding, when fired... I have some serious doubts considering how much into upgrading one has to be to get his rifle to an outstanding level..and you just cannot do it with an expensive PTW..but that might just be my guess.

I should just hold both in my hands and fire them for a day or so to get the feeling

Also getting a PTW would derail the purpose of a project gun, because I will be thinking twice about putting my hands into something so expensive..the only reason I would get one is if it was "unreachable" in terms of quality/feel/durability/accuracy from all the other brands..which I was led to think it's not true.

About two years ago I was sold on getting a PTW. That was until I saw some locals showing up to the fields with their PTW's and over half of them had issues.

You also need to consider the magazines PTW's use. Just something to keep in mind. May or may not be an issue with your choice.

 

[dhm078]

I have used the PTW. Not owned or worked on, but fired. It wasn't a bad gun by any means, but I really didn't see anything particularly impressive about it. Certainly nothing that warrants the absurd cost. I to be completely honest didn't see it to be much beyond average. A trusted tech I know who owned a couple of them and has been working on guns for years confirmed my suspicions. There is no magic to them. A standard AEG can readily be upgraded to preform equally, even well beyond what the PTW can do, and for far less money. All while using standard parts that can be upgraded and replaced at will, and using standard magazines.

KWA is a brand that I have a lot of personal experience with though. I know there has been several posts singing praises for them, but I am actually going to recommend looking elsewhere if you're looking for a project gun. They come with spec issues that can make life miserable when it comes to putting in non-KWA parts. People like them for their stock performance, but it isn't anything that can't be easily matched. And in my experience the parts themselves aren't especially suited for some upgrades, which makes the spec issues that much more prevalent. People will say that you can run an M150 in one otherwise stock. Aside from pitiful motor performance under that load I have found that they really aren't conducive to really lasting a long time like that. I give it about 20-30k rounds at best, and that's assuming you know what you're doing and can tune things properly. Sounds like a lot but when you consider that a JG enhanced M4 for about $150 will when properly tuned last with an M150, even running around 25rps on full auto, several times more rounds than that... well, it's just an over-hyped claim on KWA's part. So is the whole LiPO readiness thing; they're really no better than anybody else in that regard in my experience. I can go into specifics on any of these points if they are wanted, but for now I will just say other guns are IMO superior for project guns and go on to what I would suggest doing. I'm not trying to say they are bad or even sub-par guns, they actually do very well out of the box. I just think something else would be more conducive to this project.

Since money appears to be no object, and I assume you want nice externals as well as internals/performance, my recommendation for a base gun would be a G&P, at least if you go for an AR style gun. They seem to be the favorite on AirsoftMechanics for project guns when people can afford to buy an expensive base gun, and for good reason. They have excellent externals, and their internals provide a solid base for anything really. The gearbox is a tank that is 100% to TM spec, so replacing parts with parts more conducive to your application is never a problem. You can choose the best parts and build it to last a very long time in just about whatever configuration you want. There is also VFC, which is good for similar reasons, though my personal preference is G&P. Another thing I will say, since you mentioned it in the original post, is that with AEGs, blowback isn't such a great idea. There are two types. The first is where the bolt is attached to the piston. This is both unrealistic (as the bolt "blows back" before the shot rather than after) and adds a lot of stress to the parts (the weight adds a lot of pickup force, which is very hard on the gears and piston, and makes thing more difficult for the motor). I would recommend staying away from that. The other type is pretty much exclusive to G&G. It is pneumatic, relying on air pressure generated in the cylinder when the gun is fired to blow the bolt back (though the movement is fairly small, only about a third to halfway back at best). This does not stress the internals though. It may create issues as it uses a portion of the cylinder's air-volume, which can cause some FPS problems at high power which you would be using in a long range precision gun (I am assuming you are, as this is Airsoft Sniper Forum). The former method barely translates to felt recoil, the latter method not at all. For these reasons, if you are going to do this with an AEG, I would recommend skipping blowback.

Then there are Classics as mentioned before, totally different from the GBBRs of today, as they are linked to an external air source as opposed to using green gas or propane in the mags. The GBBRs while fun and more realistic than most airsoft guns to shoot are notoriously inconsistent and not very conducive to a precision gun. But classics, where the air pressure is very well regulated, can be very consistent. That's really all I have to say about them; I've been doing AEG work for years, but only have minimal experience with classics, so I'll defer to those with more experience on recommendations in that department.

 

[l96ninja]

Classics properly tuned (SCS, LRB, etc.) can achieve ranges of 300+ feet at around 350 FPS (with a .20g BB) and some get much further than that. If you're looking to go that route, head over to classicairsoft.org - there are tons of great articles on maintenance, beginner's rifles, proper tuning, and more, and the techs really know their stuff.

 

[reezo]

Thanks guys! Your feedback is highly appreciated, +1 for your time and efforts in creating very well made posts. I am sure this thread will serve for posterity, as well

Being a project gun, I looked around and here in Italy KWA is a brand you can find only for GBB pistols. This would mean having a great rifle to start with but it will make it very hard to upgrade.

G&G, G&P and VFC are readily available in all kinds of stores. It seems G&G externals are worse than G&P and VFC so I might stick with either one of the two since the externals are probably the only long-term thing I am going to keep.

I will not head directly into making this rifle a DMR but I will handle its internals and upgraded parts as if I was going to make one (this is where VindicareAssassin's guide comes handly). The result will be a very reliable assault weapon platform capable of giving you that sense of "trust" in the field.

As far as classics go, I am still willing to upgrade the Tanaka with an external co2 rig (I like HPA but I must say a stock-pouch sized co2 rig will be more comfortable to use), probably from Palmer's directly or custom made by someone willing to do it (will pay for the job) and the only thing that I will need to do is drill the magazine and install the fitting. Parts for an air rig are hard to find here in Italy and not to spec, this is why I am willing to pay some extra and have the whole rig shipped to me.

After having an air rig working with my Tanaka M40A1 it will be no problem to go classic, I guess

Thanks again and if you have ANY other intel or experience, feel free to send it this way, I can't thank you enough for this.

One of the most impressive DMR's I've seen - been shot by was a WE EBR M14. (...)
Those WE M14's are fun to shoot though.

Looking at the picture a second time..I see a co2 rig under the M14 magazine..so this guy was playing with a GBB rifle? My whole doubt about getting one was the fact that it was probably not skirmishable..but this proves me wrong. Bear with me and my inexperience.

A WE GBB rifle would be awesome, especially because I own a gas rifle already and I might have use for some of the tools-parts I have (rig, gas cans etc.)

UPDATE:
Some local retailer suggested me to focus either on G&G or VFC (among the stuff that is available here in my country) but to steer away from G&P which - he writes - have Chinese components inside, even if of a higher quality than the usual standards. So he said G&G and VFC are more suited for this project.

If I go AEG, I am not going to care much about the blowback..which makes me prefer VFC for the better externals (G&G has great internals but I am going to modify them anyway).

Now the dilemma is for an AEG against a GBBR. I am saying GBBR because I could still skirmish with it without taking a huge tank with me. If I consider GBBRs, then WE can be another great brand..

..and the Systema PTW idea is gone, for this project. I am narrowing the choices thanks guys.

 

[explosive]

KWA's really are not made to be upgraded with all the pretty parts floating around the net, but since the OP really can't get his hands on a KWA, mute point to continue discussing KWA's on this post.

reezo - Yes the WE M14 is a gas blow back. The owner has a Palmer reg and quick Co2 chamber on each magazine he owns. Pricey, but one of the best external air rig ideas I've seen. His rifle was very accurate. My AEG G&G is just as accurate, if not more so. His GBB M14 does have a loud clank when fired, so that can be counter productive if you are trying to be sneaky.
He certainly has the cool factor with his GBB M14. Another buddy has a WE M14 GBB which when the mags are working, shoots flat and accurate. Then again my G&G AEG M14 shoots just has flat, further and very accurate. Less headaches too.

Lets focus on AEG's you can choose from.

G&P - Above average details. I handed my G&P M4 SOPMOD to a guy who owns multiple Armalites and he really thought it was a real M4 for a few minutes. There's obviously ways to tell it's not a real rifle though. Internally there's a couple things I'm not fond of. The wiring is soft and can be easily pinched causing shorts. If you plan on upgrading internals though, then why does the stock G&P internals matter? The dust covers on G&P's irritates me. They don't close and the tension spring keep it open. There's ways around this. I just purchased an SRC dust cover and it works perfect and latches shut. I believe ICS will also work on a G&P (think my buddy had to purchase an ICS dustcover). G&P gears - don't trust them. They'll work fine for a year or so if gun is left stock.
Any highspeed or torque builds and they quickly fail. Not all V2 spring guides work in a G&P. Best bet is to purchase G&P V2 spring guide. Stock gear box is alright. Wouldn't trust a 450+ FPS build with a stock G&P mechbox.

G&G - I am not a fan of their low end line. For a run around, nice shooting M4, their combat machines and regular M4's do a good job though. Internally G&G's seem strong. Gears are solid, but with a high powered DMR, you should change them out. I'm not overly impressed with G&G's externals. At least with ALL the G&G's I see at the local games. Very common gun.
All I know is when everybody is on the field and the guys with "highly upgraded" G&G's shoot at me
and I shoot back with my stock KM4, or SR10, I'm usually hitting them and their bb's are falling around me, or flying wildly around me. Everybody is pretty much around the same FPS.
I just purchased a G&G M16a2 converted into a CAR 15 (M733). Exactly what I wanted to add to my collection, but if KWA made a classic A1, or A2 M16, CAR 15, I would not of purchased a G&G.

VFC - I seldom see them locally. I have seen one VFC SCAR16 and externally was pretty realistic.
By far one of the better looking SCAR's. It shoots better than a G&G SCAR (side by side comparison). Unfortunately I have little experience with VFC's. Have not worked on one, or see many around locally.

Classic Army - I have seen some upgraded ones shoot amazingly well. I have a Classic Army M15
and currently it's sitting in pieces in a box. Project gun, that I'm slowly rebuilding.

ICS - some locals swear by them. They are usually in the parking lot always working on their guns too. They can shoot very well when they are working though.

to dhm078: In my experience all guns have compatibility issues with both internal and external parts. A spring guide that will fit into a G&G, or Classic Army will not fit into a G&P, even if it's a V2 spring guide. Some V2 gears do not fit into all V2 mechboxes. Some M4 air nozzles will not work in other M4's. It's the nature of multiple countries producing guns for Airsoft and they all build by different specs. KWA makes their components at a tighter tolerance than most other manufactures. Their externals are more to real specs than other guns. I found this out trying to mount things to their rails. KWA rails are a true 20mm. G&P's rails seem to be 19mm.
All I know is when I go to a big game, or important game, I pack two KWA's and leave everything else at home. Proof is in the performance.

Systema PTW's in my opinion are a bit out dated. They serve a purpose for training LEO's (law enforcement), Security forces and so on... Great for training and getting the realistic functions
of a real Armalite system. Not really ideal for scrimmages. Just because you put a $1000-1200
price tag on something, does not make it superior. It will though out perform a $200 AEG (if left stock etc).

I'll leave you with some photos:
KWA (left) next to a G&P (right)

G&G M14:

KWA will all kinds of external and internal upgrades (it can be done!) Project build for a good friend of mine:

My KWA work horse:

Some of my collection (and my buddies KWA thrown in - took as a ransom photo to send to him saying "I'm keeping your gun!"):

 

[reezo]

Awesome pictures! I am getting closer to the right idea for what I intend to do..I am going to put aside the GBBR idea, pause the classic airsoft one for a bit (at least until I get my air rig for the M40A1) and go AEG.

I am taking into account that:
1) I don't have a skirmish-able gun at all
2) I might use the *good* points of an AEG to counter the *bad* points of the gas rifle I already own (you all know what they are so I won't list them here)

All things considered, I completely agree with Explosive's point of view on the Systemas. I must say a number of people who sell them sincerely told me to stay away from them for the my project.

At the moment I am considering either a KWA or a VFC. Very good guns from the info I have gathered. In stock form the KWA tends to be a better buy but considering that:
1) KWA rifles are not imported in Italy (literally no store has them)
2) I am going to customize the gun internally and I would never touch something that works so well as a KWA stock
3) VFC are widely spread in stores here in Italy (although you see a lot of TM and G&Gs all the way)

I might get a VFC, specifically I am trying to understand what M4 to get..the SR16 and the Warrior (E-Serie) look great..

PS: I better take my eyes off the SCARs, beautiful but cumbersome, I know I am going to regret the buy .. for now.

 

[explosive]

Reezo, I think you have your answer then. Get a VFC M4 style AEG.

That is the brand I am the least familiar with, but from what I hear
their internals are nearly as good as KWA's. Maybe less headaches upgrading a VFC vs. upgrading a KWA.

I rarely see VFC's around my area, otherwise I'd probably own one
and be able to compare with other brands I've dealt with.

best of luck - keep us posted.

 

[reezo]

Thanks Explosive! I will keep this thread up to date with my latest research and intel. I hope I can act as a sort of connection between the airsofters "here" and the other ones "there" because - as you can see - there are some brands that you don't see "locally" but you can still get them from internet stores like the ones we are the most familiar with.

The general consensus seems to be that:

- G&G is going to be great to get a good gun that is not cheap. Good externals, very good internals, excellent upgrade compatibility;

- KWA is going to be great to get an excellent gun stock for a price that is not equal to what it is really worth (hence a good deal). Excellent internals, very good externals (some say "excellent"), fair upgrade compatibility because of the proprietary pieces;

- VFC is going to be great to get a gun that has excellent externals and very good internals, for a fair price to what you get and a very good upgrade compatibility;

- G&P seems to be exactly as VFC in terms of "good points". There is a very strong competition between G&P and VFC because both company aim to deliver the same platform product (this is why it makes sense comparing the two, while G&G and KWA stand on two different targets). The discussion between VFC vs G&P is endless it seems and it is subject to taste. Some voices "out of the choir" warned me that G&P internals are pretty crappy (some said they are "Chinese-budget-quality" but these was confirmed to be false). I do not know these persons in real life but the information they provided me with is very well written and I can read between the lines that these guys know what they are talking about.

I think I am going to surprise you all and get a cheap 10 bucks Wal-Mart pistol and show it off in this thread, thus making it l33tz0r.

Check this thread back for further updates, I am heading in the endless dimension of YouTube and Ze AirZoft Forumz

UPDATE:
I might fall for this one:

In case you want to look at the VFC catalog and suggest variations, this is their page:
VFC E-Series Catalog

Too bad the Warrior has VFC logos while the CQB version has USMC logos..mmhh..

 

[metallicafatcat]

Who ever said G&P's internals are Chinese is wrong, crappy yes, Chinese wrong. At this point, I'd recommend a G&P for you as I find there are much more sets of G&P externals than VFC so you may save yourself some hassle. Lastly G&P might also have the trades you want.