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Discussion Starter #1
Heavy bbs don't give you extra range unless you are lobbing them, then they are more accurate. So why is it that every tech says they have an R hop working for a 400 fps gun and they say it fires 250 ft with .28s yet there isn't a single shred of evidence for it. Is this just some mass stupidity because there isn't any research done on airsoft and people like to assume things because some tech somewhere once told them something?
 

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Bawwwhaaahaaa...excellent graphic!! (still laughing)..

Tell you what, pop-sout223, build it, and make it happen. then you'll have your evidence. Oh, and I'm one of the guys that built one (firing .3's) and doing better than that. heheheh
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I'm talking about distance traveled by the bb, not distance hit, .20s veer off target at 200 ft for me while .28s don't, it's still the same distance whether they do or don't. If there is a difference, it is insignificant. Stability plays a part but that's about it.
 

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Is this just some mass stupidity because there isn't any research done on airsoft and people like to assume things because some tech somewhere once told them something?
Yes.

.20s veer off target at 200 ft
.2's don't even make it to 200' before dropping to the ground.

Heavy bbs don't give you extra range unless you are lobbing them, then they are more accurate.
Actually, no, heavy bb's do give you more range, assuming your system has enough energy and hop potential to lift said heavy bb. Heavier bb's carry their speed longer because they don't decellerate as quickly which means they stay in the air longer because the magnus force lifting them affects them longer. Which means they travel further.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RX4olZOgoU

Long story short, R-hop doesn't give you more range, it just allows you to use heavy bb's, and heavy bb's give you more range.

Sadly misunderstood by 99% of the airsoft community...
 

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Imagine trying to throw a cotton ball, a 3" rock, and a brick. Which one will go furthest? The cotton ball is too light and decelerates the fastest. The brick is (probably) too heavy for your arm to through effectively. The rock is in the middle. Same goes for BBs. At any given energy output, there will be a BB that is light enough that it doesn't fully take advantage of the energy output of the gun, and there will also be a weight that is too heavy for the gun to properly propel. Gotta find the sweet spot.

Other hop systems can hop .3s+ no problem. But R-hops are less intrusive and more consistent so you're gaining effective range.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I know the physics part of it, with my .20s and .28s they seem to have the same range, just different accuracy. Also, I don't think you read my second post.
 

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No, a heavier BB will give you more range. With a VSR system shooting 500 fps and using an r-hop, almost any BB will work. We aren't talking about steel here.
A VSR can use use 20 gram - ceramic effectively.
Try it. Get a 20 gram, 30 gram, 40 gram, 50 gram, and ceramic .69. The ceramic will travel furthest if you have an r-hop.
While some systems will perform worse with heavier BB's, it's safe to say that 500 FPS and an r-hop is all you'll really need to benefit from the range.
 

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I've done some tests with spin and how it affects accuracy.
I built my own gun vice and conducted all of the tests indoors.
Here is what I used:
AEG, 380 FPS using .28 gram BB
Prometheus barrel with Krytac Fin HopUp Rubber

The reason I used the Krytac rubber was because the BB hit the same spot on the rubber every time. Kind of like a PDI W-Hold.

If I remember correctly, the most accurate shots were those with very minimal spin.
Reliku pointed out that the reason this could have happened was because pressure from the hop up rubber could have screwed the trajectory of the shot up.
That's why when very minimal pressure was applied, it resulted in a minimal precision deviation.

So if you look at an r-hop, very little contact is required to give a lot of spin.
With other buckings, that simply isn't true.
So r-hop will not increase range, but it'll simply increase accuracy.
R-hop is also a much more efficient means of providing spin.
For example, a normal bucking would have to contact the bb much more than an r-hop would to give the same spin.
That would lessen the velocity of the BB, creating less energy.
And r-hop can provide the same spin with more energy than other buckings simply because it's much more efficient.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
I've done some tests with spin and how it affects accuracy.
I built my own gun vice and conducted all of the tests indoors.
Here is what I used:
AEG, 380 FPS using .28 gram BB
Prometheus barrel with Krytac Fin HopUp Rubber

The reason I used the Krytac rubber was because the BB hit the same spot on the rubber every time. Kind of like a PDI W-Hold.

If I remember correctly, the most accurate shots were those with very minimal spin.
Reliku pointed out that the reason this could have happened was because pressure from the hop up rubber could have screwed the trajectory of the shot up.
That's why when very minimal pressure was applied, it resulted in a minimal precision deviation.

So if you look at an r-hop, very little contact is required to give a lot of spin.
With other buckings, that simply isn't true.
So r-hop will not increase range, but it'll simply increase accuracy.
R-hop is also a much more efficient means of providing spin.
For example, a normal bucking would have to contact the bb much more than an r-hop would to give the same spin.
That would lessen the velocity of the BB, creating less energy.
And r-hop can provide the same spin with more energy than other buckings simply because it's much more efficient.
You're in the wrong thread, this is a thread about effective range, not accuracy. It plays a part in it but effective range is maximized with .25s when at 1.5j already so why would I use an R hop outside of basrs and dmrs if it gives the same or slightly better range than stock.
 

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this is a thread about effective range, not accuracy... why would I use an R hop outside of basrs and dmrs if it gives the same or slightly better range than stock.
You already know the answer. At least... I think? Also, you can't talk about effective range without talking about precision. Effective range is a function of precision and distance traveled.
 

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You're in the wrong thread, this is a thread about effective range, not accuracy. It plays a part in it but effective range is maximized with .25s when at 1.5j already so why would I use an R hop outside of basrs and dmrs if it gives the same or slightly better range than stock.
He is in the right thread.

I find your statements difficult to comprehend. So you are telling me, if my rifle can shoot at maximum 250 feet, if I shoot 100 feet with 1' groupings, that has no more effective range than a rifle shooting 100 feet with 3" groupings. Other than wind and environmental factors, the projectile is pretty much set the second the BB leaves the barrel. If your rifle fires more accurately at a shorter distance, the range to which it is effective also increases. The BB does not physically fly farther, but because its projectile is set, it flies further in the right direction.

What maximises effective range with .25's at 1.5J? If you are using, for example, .4's and your rifle now has a maximum range that is 100ft further, the BB stabilizes quicker, interita and rotational inertia increases which means spin lasts longer and the BB slows less. That being said, the BB is more accurate and flies further due to the increase of mass in general. The only way your effective range would not increase is if you cannot hop the BB.

Why would you use an R-Hop outside of DMR's and BASR's? Lots of reasons. As earlier stated, a lot of pressure is not preferred, and I would rather not have a large protruding lump in my barrel. By extending the contact of the patch, the hop is applied with less pressure over a longer period of time. You get the perks of minimal pressure on the BB with the same hop effect. This will increase accuracy some, allow you to hop heavier BB's, and be a lot more consistant. If you hold a ball in your hand, is it easier to balance on the tip of your finger or in your palm? Same thing goes to hopup, you don't want the BB sliding into strange places, you want it seated efficiently and consistently. Plus all it takes is a little time, order the right tubing and it is dirt cheap.

Again, please look into these details a bit before asking questions, I learned a lot of my information here, anyone can do the same.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Range and effective range are two different things, i'm asking for proof for the R hop increasing distance traveled.(I'll read it thoroughly tomorrow, i'm too tired to rationalize stuff rn.)
 

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After this, I am done with trying to explain things to you.
And this is the correct thread. As Crusher pointed out, you can't talk about effective range without talking about precision. " Effective range is a function of precision and distance traveled.", is a very good way of putting it.
For example, if you get very tight groupings at 30 feet on one gun, and on the other get very loose groupings, the first gun will have a better effective range. This is because the first gun's precision does not diminish at such a fast rate as the second, which will theoretically mean it will stay accurate for longer if the same curve appears. Unless something super crazy happens, but shooting BB's is a pretty controlled thing. There's a set speed range, set spin range, and usually a set spin decay or diminishing range (if your spin range is tight, your diminishing range will also be), if outside factors aren't to be accounted for. I say outside factors such as wind. And the reason I say "range" is because it's just wrong to say a "set spin." That's because every single shot in an airsoft gun will not be 100% the same, and theoretically, the gun with the most consistent energy range, spin range should have the furthest effective range.
This is how I see it.
I'm not sure if you know the concept of effective range. Effective range is the range where you can accurately land shots, not the point of distance where your gun can accurately shoot.
Secondly, one of the reasons I began talking about precision was to explain that r-hop improves precision, not range.
As I've stated multiple times in my previous posts, an r-hop does not interfere with the BB's flight too much, while at the same time providing sufficient spin.
Other buckings, such as a ridge style bucking or mound style bucking require the BB to ride right over a bump or groove. This provides spin, but the BB contacts the bucking much more violently and that can result in bad precision or less FPS.

I'm not even sure why I'm explaining this to you. You can easily come up with the same things I've said if you had just thought a little or Googled it.
"Heavy bbs don't give you extra range"
I should've just refrained from posting after I saw that.
If you are unsure of something, it's always best to ASK before making such statements like that.
EDIT:
I just wasted so much time typing this, but whatever.
 

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The beauty of the r hop is its ability to be precisely tuned. Two things affect your BB's trajectory. Induced spin, and direction of induced spin. So, let's call it pressure (induced spin from the hop pushing on the BB) and duration (how long the patch contacts the BB to induce the spin and keep it on track. In a stock bucking, you may be contacting the BB through maybe 30-45 degrees of arc or rotation. So, the actual time the BB contacts the bump is less than a quarter of a turn of the BB (which would be 90 degrees). In that short period, I have to induce spin and do it so that the BB receives a corrected trajectory at the same time. That's an awful lot for less than a quarter turn of contact.

I started experimenting with different r hop/window lengths as well as different r hop designs. If I can induce the same spin on the BB through 180 degrees of arc or 1/2 a turn of the BB, I can induce the same spin for a longer duration with less pressure meaning less erratic behaviour from the BB as it leaves the barrel in a more stable state. It's alot like throwing a baseball where your fingers and thumb are the bucking pressure and the length of your fingers controls the duration of spin applied.

These forces apply to any round object you're trying to induce a spin on. So, there's actually two factors that can be controlled or tuned with an r hop that you can't control with a manufactured bucking in a specific gun.

How does this affect range? Every object in flight has a terminal trajectory it can travel and can only be altered by reducing drag, or increasing lift. If you can keep the lift vector vertical (by making sure the spin is induced in a line perpendicular to the ground) then you eliminate the energy dispersing sideways and the only force you're fighting is gravity....also look at gyroscopic effects. In a forward direction you're trying to create lift without creating a turbulent wave in front of the BB. If you fire a certain weight of BB too fast, you'll go off track simply because the inertia over compresses the media (air) and the wave becomes unstable. Just like a boat on a lake. Too fast and the steering gets really twitchy. There is a an optimum velocity to all things. Same goes for the Magnus Effect. Too much spin creates instability, not enough and the BB drops.

The beauty of the r hop is that all of this can be tuned and controlled with great precision, although tuning can be a real pain in the ass. But once you get it on point...wowee!!!
 

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R-hop Explained in simple bullet points:

- R Hop is a longer contact patch.
- Less downward pressure is needed to apply hop
- Normal buckings need more downward pressure to create backspin
- The longer contact area makes it easier for heavier bb's to spin
- R-Hop does not increase range. It increases backspin.
- R-Hop can allow you to use heavier bb's
- You still need reasonable energy rates with R-hop to fire extra heavy bb's long range. So a 300fps rifle will not be any good firing a 0.45gm bb even if it does have R-hop.
- Many people used to say that R-hop will make your bb fly further. They are wrong. The people who created R-hop also marketed it saying that it will make your bb fly further. They were wrong. It creates more backspin which allows you to use heavier bb's and heavier bb's hold there energy for longer which in turn will give you longer range.

This has all been pretty much covered in previous posts.
 

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You're in the wrong thread, this is a thread about effective range, not accuracy.
Range and effective range are two different things, i'm asking for proof for the R hop increasing distance traveled.
:shrug:

There are these things called details that help people know what answer someone is looking for. What is seen above is called contradiction, it causes large amounts of wasted time for all of us. Keep it sweet and simple, and make sure everyone knows what question you are asking.
 

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Late to the discussion here.
I want to add that Rhop/similar products is not necessarely about providing more spin (which can sound confusing; we can already lift 0.30, 0.40 etc with normal buckings, so why do we need more spin?), but about providing the same amount of spin (to lift X BB) with less force pushing on the BB. This decreases the pressure build up (airseal loss) and decreases piston deacceleration, which in turn makes the gun shoot harder.

You all know what happens when you dial a normal AEG up for a .40. It sounds like it's jamming and it loses a lot of energy.

With rhop/etc it'll lift the .40 without losing energy.

So it doesn't increase range, it just decreases energy loss with heavy BB.

If a gun is already lifting the BB and shooting just under the field limit, RHOP/etc cannot improve that.

What it can do, in such cases, is allow you to run (just an example) a weaker spring, thus making the rifle more quiet/easier to cycle.

Also touching on this subject in a bigger perspective, regarding how a hopup basicly works, i've tried to distill the formula:
Friction area size on top half
-The closer to the top centre (rather than sides), the more effective it is.
Friction amount (material)
Pressure applied to friction area

Then you make the equivelant calculations for the lower half of the BB and detract that.

And then the final modifier is the actual speed of the BB passing through.

If you had a rubber surface underneath the BB when it passed, it would not get backspin. The pressure applied from the top is equal at the bottom of the BB.
The backspin comes from a differential in top half / bottom half resistance and BB speed, not just pressure or grip.

The speed is normally attained from applying a "locking" pressure to the BB, that then builds up pressure behind it, and gives it an initial boost to have speed past the hopup surface.

One of my ideas is a barrel with permanent hopup material surface on the top, and a nylon block (barrel shaped or whatever) on the bottom that then adjusts pressure.
The nylon (or whichever material is best) has less friction than the normal barrel surface.

And many other ideas :)
 

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I should note something mentioned above. Not all buckings are equal either some will hop heavier weight ammo with less issue. As an example I've got a CA m16a2 shooting 525fps that runs 0.43g without any issues on a madbull blue. Been running that way for several years, originally I planned to rhop it like most of my guns but honestly it's a tack driver as it is, I'm not messing with it until something breaks. It's more consistent shooting then most of my guns that have allot more time and tuning. Maybe more than my rhopped tm vsr10. So it varies allot with brand of bucking and hopup unit in how it works in the real world.

And I'm not against rhop I dig it, it's a pain to get just right but once it works they do well. But a bucking normally can do quite well also.

Take care

Luke

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk
 

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One of my ideas is a barrel with permanent hopup material surface on the top, and a nylon block (barrel shaped or whatever) on the bottom that then adjusts pressure.
The nylon (or whichever material is best) has less friction than the normal barrel surface.
I did this about 4 years ago except I made a bucking with a nub on the top and bottom. I used a M4 and put a screw in the bottom of the hopup chamber as an adjuster.
In theory, I think it should have worked but my version of this experiment was with an AEG. I think I bolt action rifle would be the way to do it. With an AEG the air nozzle retracts and this can release the pressure build up. With a bolt action the air nozzle is in a fixed position.
Let me know how it works for you. I may even try it again with a bolt action.
 
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