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Discussion Starter · #21 · (Edited)
The stock piston is APS2, but not 90 degrees like I understand the rest are. Thus, the piston is a custom 45 degree piston, designed to fit in the APS2 cylinder. The only successful changeouts I'm aware of were APS2 pistons that were shaved down to 45 degrees.

The stock piston and trigger unit have had no problems with two SP170 springs for over several months now, and a 500fps (supposedly) spring before that. Upgrading this is irrelevant at this point, given that two SP170 springs have proven incapable of bringing the power up.

The issue is that the gun does not produce more than 2J of energy, despite improvents to every area that would impact this. I realize that since the gun is APS2 spec cylinder, shortening the barrel to 430mm from 465mm probably lost me some power, but surely full seal and a beefy spring would substantially offset this? Apparently not.

Previously, the stock oring was insufficient to prevent leak by with my original SP170. With the new oring (Same size best I can tell) the piston is pretty snug. I wouldn't say it is hard to move but it does give full seal like it is supposed to.

The only other thing I can figure is that the cylinder head has not been aligned with the barrel correctly, which caused me to think my previous barrel was bent (it was, but the new one has the same problem)*. I'm going to rectify that, play a game or two with it, and maybe after that toy with piston weights until I purchase a SSG96 or SSG10A2.

As it stands, the gun's stock performance at $80 makes for a great starter gun, but despite dropping $170 into it at this point it shoots only marginally better than it did before. Why I cannot get the energy higher than 2J is beyond me, but from what I've seen nobody else has managed this either.

*Maybe that's not entirely true. I put a second o-ring in a extra groove for testing purposes. It may be causing extra drag. Still, aren't 170s supposed to give 3.3J min? Surely that's not causing a full joule to be lost, especially since this was not an issue previously
 

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Yeah, that was an extreme downer, same with the barrel being a slip fit with no threads at all.
Tbh the Double Bell VSR-10 I had for a week had the same slip fit outer barrel, but at least that had a metal piston, full piston seal, 500 FPS, and a nice bolt pull with a GOD DAMN METAL RECEIVER.
For the $130 or whatever it was, it's definitely worth paying the extra $30 for it due to the stainless cylinder and all the other things that made it better.
Most of the review s online state the receiver is metal wonder if they changed it to plastic recently?

Tankcom what's your reciever made from?
 

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The stock piston is APS2, but not 90 degrees like I understand the rest are. Thus, the piston is a custom 45 degree piston, designed to fit in the APS2 cylinder. The only successful changeouts I'm aware of were APS2 pistons that were shaved down to 45 degrees.

The stock piston and trigger unit have had no problems with two SP170 springs for over several months now, and a 500fps (supposedly) spring before that. Upgrading this is irrelevant at this point, given that two SP170 springs have proven incapable of bringing the power up.

The issue is that the gun does not produce more than 2J of energy, despite improvents to every area that would impact this. I realize that since the gun is APS2 spec cylinder, shortening the barrel to 430mm from 465mm probably lost me some power, but surely full seal and a beefy spring would substantially offset this? Apparently not.

Previously, the stock oring was insufficient to prevent leak by with my original SP170. With the new oring (Same size best I can tell) the piston is pretty snug. I wouldn't say it is hard to move but it does give full seal like it is supposed to.

The only other thing I can figure is that the cylinder head has not been aligned with the barrel correctly, which caused me to think my previous barrel was bent (it was, but the new one has the same problem)*. I'm going to rectify that, play a game or two with it, and maybe after that toy with piston weights until I purchase a SSG96 or SSG10A2.

As it stands, the gun's stock performance at $80 makes for a great starter gun, but despite dropping $170 into it at this point it shoots only marginally better than it did before. Why I cannot get the energy higher than 2J is beyond me, but from what I've seen nobody else has managed this either.

*Maybe that's not entirely true. I put a second o-ring in a extra groove for testing purposes. It may be causing extra drag. Still, aren't 170s supposed to give 3.3J min? Surely that's not causing a full joule to be lost, especially since this was not an issue previously
What BB weight are you using? 430mm should be .45.or .48g I think, anything lighter and it's wasted air volume.

Also the stock piston is so light I would assume more weight would only help.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
What BB weight are you using? 430mm should be .45.or .48g I think, anything lighter and it's wasted air volume.

Also the stock piston is so light I would assume more weight would only help.
Tested both .4g and .45g bbs. Using the latter, anything past 250ft requires a lot of hop. A half setting on my Mr Hop, the bbs will drop 20-30ft starting around 265ft. Crank that up and they might reach 310ft - maybe.

As for the piston - that was my thought too, but so far it has only made things worse. I've yet to get anything but reverse joule creep out of the gun. All of the springs tested with added piston weight (including the first 170) were shooting in the 400-460fps range with .2g bbs, so it appears they were not generating enough energy to compensate for the added weight.
 

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Tested both .4g and .45g bbs. Using the latter, anything past 250ft requires a lot of hop. A half setting on my Mr Hop, the bbs will drop 20-30ft starting around 265ft. Crank that up and they might reach 310ft - maybe.

As for the piston - that was my thought too, but so far it has only made things worse. I've yet to get anything but reverse joule creep out of the gun. All of the springs tested with added piston weight (including the first 170) were shooting in the 400-460fps range with .2g bbs, so it appears they were not generating enough energy to compensate for the added weight.
Your using a vsr spec spring aren't you?

Might be why power is hitting a limit around 2j, aps2 springs are longer to keep the piston under a more even amount of pressure, action army t96 springs are 7/11mm so would work, aps2/t96 rifles can reach high joules so the issue appears to be the spring used.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 ·
Your using a vsr spec spring aren't you?

Might be why power is hitting a limit around 2j, aps2 springs are longer to keep the piston under a more even amount of pressure, action army t96 springs are 7/11mm so would work, aps2/t96 rifles can reach high joules so the issue appears to be the spring used.
I was wondering about this. How long are APS2 springs? The VSR10 Laylax SP170 spring is about an inch longer than the stock spring prior to install, and the same length after break-in.
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
An unused action army m150 for type96 is 23.8cm. Luckily I have a spare one in my gun bag.
Given the unused VSR SP170 spring is about 25-26cm new, this could explain why it would be shooting in the 450-480 FPS range, right? I have some DIY FPS adjuster rings I purchased that are 1cm long a piece - thinking maybe that'd help bring the power up now that I have a good seal. I'm hoping the reason this didn't work before is because I didn't have a piston seal previously.

I removed the second oring because it made for a very tight fit, adding a lot of resistance. I now have a very small amount of leakby, but with that and bring the piston weight back down I have gained a marginal amount of range back. I suspect I'm back in the 2J range again - I'll know for sure around Christmas when I borrow my brother's chrono.
 

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Well, my suspicions were correct. Brand new SP170 gave 480 fps. I put one of my spacers in and got it up to 505 fps. I knew based on previous experience a second spacer would not latch, but desperate to get up to 530, I put another one in anyway - no avail.

The spring is already wearing in - it is barely shooting 2J with .2g bbs and 1.5J with .4g bbs, even with a spacer in now.

Varying piston weight (no weight, 1 wrap of lead tape, 2 wraps) made no appreciable difference to the lighter ammo and had a negative effect on the heavier ammo.

If I could find a APS2 11mm/8mm spring powerful enough I think this rifle would sing. Unfortunately, I cannot find such an elusive thing, and thus the power is capped in the 450fps range. The only upgrades that have made a difference is the bucking and spring. Other items are compatible but not worth the cost or effort.

I maintain this is an excellent budget rifle, great for beginners or those wanting to test the waters. I would recommend a bucking upgrade and spring upgrade - nothing else. That would put you at roughly $110 USD for a rifle that can fling .4g bbs flat to 250ftish.

For those wanting a rifle they can build up to 550fps and/or joule creep, this is not the rifle for you.

Now to decide if I'm buying a SSG10A2 or SSG96....
 
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