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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been spending a lot of time brainstorming recently, as it looks like many of us have been.

One thing that I keep going back and forth on is the idea of how the BB should be loaded into the "chamber" and I just wanted to see if anyone around here has any first hand experience with classic airsoft.

For those of you that don't know, classic airsoft rifles loaded themselves with a spring loaded 'shuttle' that would move to the rear to pick up a BB, once the shuttle picked up a BB, the BB would be pushed against an O-ring or a soft nozzle at the front of the shuttle creating a seal and the constant air flow would push the shuttle forward, pushing the BB against the seal that was created until the pressure built enough to push the BB through.

I am wondering how reliable this method is and how inherently accurate (or inaccurate) it is.

The reason that this interests me is that with HPA/CO2 rigs, it has been proven that to create an efficient system both for FPS and for conservation of gas, the system has to have 2 characteristics.
1. Minimal dead space (space between the source and the projectile)
2. Maximum flow.

The classic system is ideal for this because it allows pressure to build up before firing the BB, this executes both of the above characteristics.

Think about if you had a blow gun. If you were to shoot the blow gun as one normally would, that is, take a deep breath and fire by releasing as quickly as possible and prolonging the exhale as long as possible, you would get a predictably powerful effect. If you were to fire it by slowly exhaling and increasing to maximum effort and then decreasing to a slow exhale you would lose range and accuracy. I would like to see if this would apply in theory to airsoft as well.
 

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Yeah, I've been thinking about this too, and I have an idea. Basically, have a wide mouthed barrel, and a very wide air nozzle. Then have this barrel taper down to a 6.01/6.03/whatever. This would get the air out of the cylinder, and into the barrel quicker. Even though the barrel does taper down, it would still push more air out of the cylinder faster, because usually the nozzles are somewhere around 4-5mm instead of the full 6mm. If you need it, I could draw something up.
 

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Or the bb could load into the cylinder head and fire through a barrel like awagg said. The cylinder head would either have a mesh or an o-ring to hold the BB in place and then the cylinder head neck would go over the barrel, it would have a larger head at the front for an o-ring to fit over the barrel to create a seal. I don't know....stupid idea. Just a 5-second thought.
 

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Seems really confusing, :) It would be really hard to get the bb to stay in place on the cylinder head, and might fall, making a huge jam. You would get good compression though. But you still have the problem of a light force of air, then a heavyier force after, from the piston gaining momentum from the spring. But with a gas rifle, it could work
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
IMO gas is the way to go; not not the way that they have been doing it... again IMHO.

I don't think that flaring the nozzle or the barrel will get the same effect. The idea is basically creating a re-usable burst disc valve, with the BB as the burst disc that would ideally be able to be controlled via a triggering mechanism. Ideally you would be able to bring all of the air to full pressure behind the BB before even pulling the trigger; but any build up of pressure would theoretically increase performance.
 

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One thing that I keep going back and forth on is the idea of how the BB should be loaded into the "chamber"
because it allows pressure to build up before firing the BB
Think about if you had a blow gun............
Ahh, someone has really been thinking I see. Rethinking even. Interesting...... I'll watch and see how this unfolds. Now, if only this could be applied with a spring gun.

What is the specific problem you are trying to solve? Do you have a problem statement. Perhaps that would help people focus the scope?
 

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Just read the whole post. Not that I am any kind of expert or anything, but I see some legitimate concepts here. From all you. What do you have 3 way phone conversations and brain storm together or something? :)


Again not that I am an expert on know anything, but I like how you guys are thinking about this.
 

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What about a bucking but that went into the barrel and held the BB snug? Like awagg said a wider barrel maybe and an inserted bucking could be snug allowing pressure to build like bobgengeskahn mentions? The you could do longer or harder bucking and maybe introduce a long hop up not a speed bump type? Just putting ideas out there, not sure if any of it helps.

Interesting reading here. Airsoft folk tend to be enamored with tapering cylinder cap backsides. This talks about port sizes, but yes you will have to apply it to AS but still good material.

http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/10/air-transfer-port-part-1.html
http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2008/10/air-transfer-port-part-2.html
 

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Oh, sorry, I forgot to post back. I read those port size articles a while back, and as I recall, it basically said a wide, straight, and centered port is best. We pretty much already knew this though, but it's good to reinforce it. A thought I have it a possible "form fitting barrel extender, which really gives a TIGHT seal around the bb, AND the air nozzle, giving the air one place to go, which is build up pressure on the bb, and shoot it out through the barrel. This would really hug the bb very tight, giving zero variance between the wall of the "barrel extender" and the bb. I think this would be easy to make too. Could this Classic Airsoft contraption "cart" be the answer to get the bb in place?
 

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Oh, crap, yeah, forgot about that! Reduces turbulence or something along that line. But yeah, I think my "invention" could work. I'd need some 5.5mm or so stretchy rubber gasket or something. Ideas?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
BeckLR1 said:
Anything happening here? any new ideas.

I have never seen classic airsoft as you mention, if you have a schematic can you post it?
I have been focusing more on BB design for the time being, trying to take the whole thing down to the root.

But hopefully these links will help you figure out how Classics work, even with these links, it took me forever to really 'get it' and talking to a lot of people about it too:
Animation of general concept:
http://classicairsoft.org/images/BV.htm

This is one of the better breakdowns that I have found on the internals to a classic gun:
http://www.classicairsoft.org/images/JACm16A2Limited/index.htm

Here is another thread with some good links to pics.
http://www.airsoft-barracks.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=23774

Labeled diagram:



There are two common gas systems, one feeds through the mag, here is a picture of that one:


Finally here is a classic forum if you feel like poking around:
http://classicairsoft.org/forum/forum.php

@Awagg:
Can you possibly make a paint drawing of what you are talking about? For some reason I am not able to picture it in my mind (too many BBs rolling around
) Because it sounds very interesting...
 

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Yeah, I will for sure. I'm going to bed now, but if it's not here in a day, remind me. I think this might actually go somewhere, because it's simple, but feasible.

EDIT: Oh, and Beck, I'm thinking an inside dimension of 5.5-5.75mm, so it really squeezes the bb, letting pressure build up. Thick, but flexible, so the bb can be shot through, but doesn't rip.
 

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Simple vacuum hose from auto parts store. If you pout it in a chamber smaller than the OD it squeezes the ID down. different auto parts stores have different tubing. You may have to check a few different chains. you can also get it in different thickness.
 
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