Airsoft Sniper Forum banner
1 - 20 of 118 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
562 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Echo 1 M28 Technical

The M28 platform came out two years ago, and filled a void left by the lack of CA M24 rifles, as an affordable M24 platform. This rifle was released alongside other variants of the M24 platform, like the Snow Wolf and JGW versions, all of which helped to fill in the voids. The M28 generated rave reviews when it was released, with its low pricing and its available options.

Now, generating a lot of negative press, the M28 is developing a rep as a platform to avoid. Even I have advised people against this rifle, as the rifle will surely disappoint anyone not ready for the technical problems that have plagued it since its inception. From a technical standpoint, I would like to re-evaluate the M28 rifle, looking at its good points and its faults and try to get the most correct and current information available. The information will be presented as plain and as clear as possible, in hopes of clearing up some of the bad karma that has been generated over the last two years.

Thread rules: This thread is intended for technical issues, and problem solving. We will look at the latest parts available, and learn how to make do with the proprietary parts in the rifle. This is not a CA M24 or VSR-10 or JG BAR-10 comparison thread, and we will not make any distinctions between the different platforms. Since many of the parts of the M28 are proprietary, this rifle platform should be treated as a separate entity all together. Pics and video are a must and are highly encouraged

M28 Availability:

The ECHO1 M28, after two successful years on the market, can now be had in two colors, the standard black, and now desert tan. And yes, the rifle comes with the following accessories as standard issue:
  • Two magazines
  • Harris style bi-pod
  • Barrel extension adapter
  • Tight bore barrel (6.03)
  • (3) Barrel Spacers
Most of the top retailer such as Airsoft GI, EVIKE, Airsplat, Airsoft Atlanta and Pyramyd Air carry one or both variants of the rifle. There are many more venders, just too many to list, as they are easily searched online.


One more thought, Airsoft GI and Evike have well stocked "Boneyard" links on their website that a player could pick up a spare M28 for parts. The cost is usually half that of the original. The stock and outer barrel are worth that price.

Known Issues:


  • Plastic magazines miss-feed and poor fit
  • Slam-fire
  • Bad Hop-up rubber
  • Loose trigger sears (directly related to slam-firing)
  • Bolt handle breaks off at cylinder crimp location
  • Bolt / cylinder outer shell damage caused by out of spec receiver centering rings (may also contribute to slam-firing)
  • Some parts are proprietary, thus no aftermarket support
Currently Available Upgrade Parts:
Note, EVIKE was marketing under the Matrix name, some cylinders and upgraded pistons, but these parts have proven to be somewhat unreliable and incompatable regardless of the description. For this reason, they are not included in this update.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
I'm going to follow this too... I have a pair of E1-M28's with new cylinders, pistons and springs. Be watchful over the cylinder, both guns had failed with cylinder issues independent of the piston.
I added the BV3/BV7 upgrade kit, it has performed flawlessly. One note, the FPS remained > 530 with the entire kit installed, but with the STOCK spring in the kit, the FPS was ~400 - 420. With the stock spring, they are 'legal' at most arenas. If I can figure a way to pull the catch pin and pull the cylinder without complete disassembly, then a quick swap is possible.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sandman-XCO1

·
Registered
Joined
·
562 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I'm going to follow this too... I have a pair of E1-M28's with new cylinders, pistons and springs. Be watchful over the cylinder, both guns had failed with cylinder issues independent of the piston.
I added the BV3/BV7 upgrade kit, it has performed flawlessly. One note, the FPS remained > 530 with the entire kit installed, but with the STOCK spring in the kit, the FPS was ~400 - 420. With the stock spring, they are 'legal' at most arenas. If I can figure a way to pull the catch pin and pull the cylinder without complete disassembly, then a quick swap is possible.
BV3/BV7 upgrades? Could you elaborate please?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
BV3/BV7 upgrades? Could you elaborate please?
That's what happens when your memory is reduced to flash-backs...
I meant "WELL Spring Rifle Upgrade Kit (for MB03/MB07)". The piston is a little shorter than the M28 piston (but it's aluminum, not plastic) but the spring is a bit longer to take up the slack. I have it in both M28's and they've been shooting great!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
562 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
That's what happens when your memory is reduced to flash-backs...
I meant "WELL Spring Rifle Upgrade Kit (for MB03/MB07)". The piston is a little shorter than the M28 piston (but it's aluminum, not plastic) but the spring is a bit longer to take up the slack. I have it in both M28's and they've been shooting great!
You are going to have to go into more depth on this mod, as I tried to do this, but the piston would never engage the sear:

 
  • Like
Reactions: Wolfgeorge

·
Registered
Joined
·
562 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 · (Edited)
I have owned my M28 for a couple years now. I bought it new from Airsoft GI months after it's release in 2010. I know this rifle inside and out. Recent topics around the internet, and the prospect of a new piston coming online have moved me to bring my M28 back into service. I am going to clean, rebuild and update my rifle to bring it back to tip top working condition.



While awaiting a key part, I have broke down my rifle and begun cleaning all of the old silicon grease off, and removing all of the teflon tape. My M28 will be like new when I am done.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
Ok, here's the dope on the MB03/MB07 upgrade kit:
  • WELL Spring Rifle Upgrade Kit (for MB03/MB07)
  • Drop in upgrade kit for WELL MB03/MB07 Spring Rifles
  • Includes Spring, Spring Guide, Piston
The boys at Airsoft Atlanta let me try several pistons, until I found this one fit almost perfectly.

The first pic shows the spring guides, notice the upgrade one is a bit shorter.
The next shows the pistons. Again the new one is shorter. I used a micrometer to verify they are the same diameter.
Next is the springs. The new one is the longer one, it provides 530FPS while using the old spring with the kit, the FPS drops to just at 400.
next shows both sets assembled, and the new kit is a total of 1/4 inch longer.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
Here's the upgrade in action:
  1. Upgrade kit installed
  2. Bolt installed in receiver
  3. Bolt closed
  4. Bolt cocked - sears holding fine\
  5. Spring fully compressed in the receiver.
All I did to the kit was to NOT use the bearing kit included. Every time I attempted to use it, the sears would NOT catch. I suspect this may be the problem you've had.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
562 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Here's the upgrade in action:
All I did to the kit was to NOT use the bearing kit included. Every time I attempted to use it, the sears would NOT catch. I suspect this may be the problem you've had.
That may be the key, is to omit the bearing guide parts.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
That may be the key, is to omit the bearing guide parts.
Yeah, now the only weak link is in the cheep metal of the cylinder. Both my M28's had bad cylinders, and were replaced with original Echo1 units I found on eBay. The stress of the heavier springs will take its toll on the pressed fittings for the bolt lever. I'm not looking to steal ~Ranger~'s thunder on his pistons, they are PERFECT replacements. Now if we can get him to make the cylinder in stainless steel, I'd be the first to order a pair of them.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
562 Posts
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Yeah, now the only weak link is in the cheep metal of the cylinder. Both my M28's had bad cylinders, and were replaced with original Echo1 units I found on eBay. The stress of the heavier springs will take its toll on the pressed fittings for the bolt lever. I'm not looking to steal ~Ranger~'s thunder on his pistons, they are PERFECT replacements. Now if we can get him to make the cylinder in stainless steel, I'd be the first to order a pair of them.
Some M28 owners have told me in no uncertain terms, that downgrading the spring was a poor move on my part. But until there is a replacement cylinder available for the M28, the M130 spring will help make lighter duty of wear and tear on my rifle. With .36 ammo, I am still hitting the high 300's and low 400 fps range. The bolt, which is original to this rifle, cycles easier and still works great.

When I was shooting this rifle alot, I maintained it regularly. I pulled everything down that used lubricant and cleaned it all off and refreshed it. Why? Because the greease would turn that nastly gray color, which means it is contaminated and needed to be replaced. This is not unlike changing the oil in your car. I also changed out the white teflon tape everytime I maintenanced the rifle. Still, if there was a quality cylinder on the market right now, I would definitely pick one up.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
65 Posts
I have found that by using the ORIGINAL spring with the upgrade kit (instead of their longer spring) the FPS dropped to ~400 and the bolt was a lot easier to pull back. However, what I did find is the set pin (or Spring Guide Stopper) would be loose and would fall out if the body didn't hold it in. The pin uses the spring force to hold it in place, but with the shorter spring, it doesn't have the power to do that.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
228 Posts
Yeah, now the only weak link is in the cheep metal of the cylinder. Both my M28's had bad cylinders, and were replaced with original Echo1 units I found on eBay. The stress of the heavier springs will take its toll on the pressed fittings for the bolt lever. I'm not looking to steal ~Ranger~'s thunder on his pistons, they are PERFECT replacements. Now if we can get him to make the cylinder in stainless steel, I'd be the first to order a pair of them.
I used CA or superglue on the pressed in bolt handle stud. I placed drops of glue along the seam all around. It quickly seeped into the gaps and bonded the the two pieces together. Not a single movement. It works, try it.

Make sure you take the piston out first.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
562 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
Besides the purchase of a new piston from Ranger Customs, I just now purchased a 'stock' M28 (OEM) hop-up chamber off of Amazon.com. My hop-up unit developed a stripped screw a couple months after I got the rifle. I manage to keep the hop-up in working order, but I figured it was time to replace it... again, this is one of those proprietary M28 parts that have no after market support.

Once everything comes together, this rifle will be at the top of it's game again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
562 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
This has been posted on ~Rangers~ piston thread, but I wanted it captured here on the technical thread:

Take a look at this video posted by Brian, the Echo1 USA lead tech. The video shows Brian repairing an M28 that is slam-firing. He replaces the trigger sears first, then the piston, and wala! The rifle is back in action... then watch a little further as he replaces the trigger assembly and piston with a 90 degree trigger assembly and pistion, that he says will be sold by Echo1... good stuff, here is the video:

http://www.brianatecho1.com/videos/h...-vsr-10-parts/

Here is the kicker; this video came out in May of this year, and as of this posting, I have not found any of the 90 degree parts available... but I'll keep looking.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
228 Posts
The 90 degree trigger is not really needed for the stock M28 out of the box. Slam firing is from the loose fitting pot metal 45 deg sear set that comes with the M28. If you look at dragon64's video, mine was not as bad as his, but getting there.


Mine is so sloppy, you can even push the sear down even without pulling the trigger. The 2nd sear side slop chews up the piston over time, as you recock and fire because the 2nd sear never engages straight so that the edges of the 2nd sear start to bit into piston catch.

I have a old TM VSR10 which is using the same trigger group as a M28. Apparently only the M28 trigger group is VSR10 compatible.

The TM VSR10 also uses a plastic piston, and that has shot thousands of shots through it and no slam fire. Why? The 45 deg sear in it has no slop so it does no tear up the piston. (A new E1 M28 sear set won't solve your problem because it is sloppy new)

I have been using a real TM VSR10 trigger assembly in my M28 now for a year, and .... no slam fire. But no one sells the real TM VSR10 trigger assembly or the parts.

My suggestion is to replace the sear group with something better. I am waiting on this sear to drop in. http://arniesairsoft.co.uk/news2/47549 It is the only one I know of that has a curve 2nd sear surface to it does not chew up a plastic piston and robust looking. Best of all, it is not pot metal like the stock ones.

The M28 is great value for the money, considering it is low cost and includes a suppressor adaptor, two magazines and bipod! The sear issue is easily fixed because aftermarket stuff is finally coming.

Also consider the Ranger's new M28 piston that will be available as well. http://airsoftsniperforum.com/showthread.php?t=4951

I am sure Ranger is working on other stuff in secrecy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
562 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
You are correct, for the stock configuration of the M28, the 90 degree trigger is over kill. These products are for the upgrade hungry players that require them for high performance builds.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
228 Posts
You are correct, for the stock configuration of the M28, the 90 degree trigger is over kill. These products are for the upgrade hungry players that require them for high performance builds.
My friend's JG Bar10 is using a M170 spring with a 90 deg sear and piston set but his range and accuracy is no better than my stock E1 M28 with a M120 in it. I can still hit a man size target easily at 250 to 280 ft with very little effort pulling the bolt back on my M120.

He has to struggle every time he pulls the bolt with the M170.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
562 Posts
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
My friend's JG Bar10 is using a M170 spring with a 90 deg sear and piston set but his range and accuracy is no better than my stock E1 M28 with a M120 in it. I can still hit a man size target easily at 250 to 280 ft with very little effort pulling the bolt back on my M120.

He has to struggle every time he pulls the bolt with the M170.
I was using an M130 spring in my rifle, but with the new rebuild, I am going to re-install the stock spring. I do not care for hard bolt pulls, just to up the fps. I'm all about accuracy and reliability. The heavier springs have too many inherant issues to warrant their services. I have never tested maximum effective range with my M28. I will after this re-build. I am planning a whole new set of videos just on the M28.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,094 Posts
I am sure Ranger is working on other stuff in secrecy.
"Shhhhh" lol..

And the actual biggest problem I saw was the slop in the piston. They wobble too much, they techically messed up the dimentions on it, and I found the solution.. Now if I can just get a more reliable machinist,lol.. I plan to save up as much as I can soI can get my own mini lathe and then I can actually get my ideas out of my head and onto your rifles! Being a mad scientist hurts my brain,hahaha.. especially when I cant make the things I see in my mind...:doh:
 
1 - 20 of 118 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top