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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all,

Came up with a few ideas the last 2 days I thought I would post them here. Use them if you wish. of course you will need to figure out the "hop chamber" and how to seal it and what not. These are ideas that cold involve a bucking or no bucking. That is the cool part. You get to design the rest.

This one involves a silicone disk. In this fashion is could be fitted into a chamber and the BB would force itself under it and then get get additional friction on the back side. This goes to the idea of a longer contact time. The black line is the barrel the BB is behind thee "nub". You could put it on an axle, you could cut it in half you could additionally load it somehow and that is without really thinking about it but I can come up with a few more and you can too I am sure.


This one is just a long contact patch. It can be fixed it it can be pivoted like a VSR there are literally a dozen things you can do with this. BB is at the start point the black line is the barrel again. Once again you have to design the rest.


This one is hard to describe so I rendered it real quick. The hole the BB and barrel go in is lower than the recessed groove. Or the groove is higher, which ever. I rendered the recessed groove round, it can be oval as well. The idea is the groove would contain a rubber ring that intercepts the barrel opening. The BB would have to squeeze past it thereby inducing spin. The arc of the recess would dictate how much contact across the top you have on the BB



Here is a W style design using o-rings over metal. the metal will need to be countersunk to hold the o-rings steady. You can add pre-load or tension or anything else. You can also use long or traditional length contact patches. Much like the silicone one in the first picture but this one gives you a split hold on the BB.

Scale is way off, but you get the idea. MS Paint sucks for drawing.


Looking at this I can combine several elements actually. This is in no way a complete list. There are dozens and dozens and more than 5 times that in variants and combos.

These ideas are there to illustrate that hop up can look different than the normal. Of course you need to design the chamber.

The idea is to envision a hop up design and then design how to make it work. This is different than traditional hops ups and try to make yet another nub variant for that design. There are very few options there, I think there is room to improve it.

People sometimes wonder what I mean when I say I designed at least 6 hop up variants that could work. This is what I mean. Except that in my current models I actually designed the chamber and seal as well. There are many ways to do that it is only limited by creativity and desire to do it. Rethink the design, come up with a concept to solve the problem and then figure out what it goes in and how to make it work.

There is no reason at all hop ups have to look and work like they do today with a nub variant, H, V W etc it is all nubs. There is no secret nub. If you want quarter size groupings it is going to have to be rethought. Forget mags and auto feeding, work that out later. #1 problem people have is trying to solve too much.

Check Craig's list locally in your town under services for machine shop or CNC. You can likely find someone who can whip something up from a Visio diagram if you have dimensions pretty cheap. :)

Use them, discuss them, add to them, or say how they would or would not work. Of course you would need to build something to verify what you say if you are being definitive.

Look at them, think what is possible.




Here is the housing I designed to hold and test all manner of designs.



Good luck and have fun!
 

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I like the pad system, I have been very interested in a system like that.
 

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The pad system requires a hop up redesign though. You can't use the ol' sliding bar to adjust the hop up, because the pad will rotate. If this seems confusing, I'll draw something to show you. The pad is a good idea though, and I have some thoughts with it. Do you think we could have an effective pad fit in an AEG barrel? Or would that be too short of a window? And using a lathe, could you expand the window without scaring the barrel?
 

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Like you have said before..... why have the window in the barrel at all?

Put a set screw in the middle of that metal bar, on the long pad, and you will be able to adjust it as much as you would want ;) I have been thinking about doing something like that for a while.

And how does a fixed hop up usually work? It is just with a set of O-rings next to each other or some other means. I am still thinking this would be the best for a sniper rifle. So you don't have to worry about bumping your hop or having it go out of wack on you. Once you get it set for a certian ammo you are good to go all day long.

I go in and get my lathe here tonight, so I will start turning as soon as I can!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yes I clearly stated you will have to redesign the whole unit. These designs are designed to redesign the hop up as opposed to sticking it in an existing VSR. I actually have an entire hop up unit I designed to house all these types of designs. About the only thing you can with with the bucking/window model is work out different nubs and perhaps go a little farther.

Redesign means redesign not augment a current design. The hard part is figuring out how it would all work. it is also the fun part. :)

I actually designed the chamber and seal as well. There are many ways to do that it is only limited by creativity and desire to do it.

Not sure why you need a barrel window or an arm or even a bucking. That is but one design, it is the current design yes, but it certainly is not the only possibility is it?

For those of you who like W style bucking I came up with an interesting simple idea last night. I'll post it later tonight.
 

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Very nice concepts man. For the "W" style you could have the rings on a removable cylinder, held in with an allen screw. So if you need to change them you can just back out the screw and replace the o-rings ;)

To many ideas man..... but all of them good!
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Yep you got it woogie. Swap out o-ring thickness to alter grip or tension or both. Slide it out slip on new rings and slide it back in then secure with a set screw.

Damn.... now I kinda like that one best ha ha. Should have kept that one perhaps. Doh!

Think that is a lot, await till you start thinking this way and then start combining them and then designing chambers it all runs together like the swirling dancing scene in Dumbo. Every idea can be applied to other ideas it quickly becomes N squared * # designs.
 

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If I had the gear I'd be all in for helping you guys out. Unfortunately though, I don't. Do you think either of you guys could make and sell custom hop-up units for pre-existing guns. Also if you decide to do that you would have to use o-rings/rubber bands etc. that are available to everyone. Eg worldwide shipping o-ring company for cheap. Because if ye were able to make an effect hop-up unit (Better than PDI) that would be compatible with AEG barrels and could fit already made guns (L96, VSR) The two of you could make a killing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Ya I think that is possible.

I could definitely make better trigger boxes and better OEM hop-ups with some hop up changes not straying very far from the OEM design. More optimizations really and more precision than casting can achieve. I could make blingy triggers or even blingy trigger billet guards or mega sized bolt handles for those that want some dress up. Scrap pot metal and plastic bits and move to billet aluminum or even steel for HD uses.

Unfortunately I am short on time.

This is why I posted this here.

Someone else can do this as well. This is why we need an R&D forum. Really spur people to want to get a post in there by doing rather than just saying.

$100 for Vernier and C calipers so you can measure -- Harbor freight for cheap adequate ones
$100 for CAD -- http://www.punchcad.com/p-6-viacad-2d3d.aspx
$150 to have a local machinist do the work -- Check Craig's list even

You can use the calipers for may things, should have them any how. The cad you can use for many things should have that anyhow it is just another tool. So outside the one time cost to get set up it is just brain power to work out details. Someone can always cut the pieces for you. :)
 

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Got to thinking about some different options, and what would happen if you were to use some rubber tubing from a hardware store? You can find them in many different sizes and thicknesses.

And you can get 10' for $2 or so. That to me is much cheaper that a little chunk of rubber.
 

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Woogie... STOP READING MY MIND!! But in all seriousness I've been theorizing something using surgical or PVC tube for the last few days... I just need to work out a good testing set up and find the time to build it around work.

Edit: As a side note I found this: http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.aspx?itemid=36213

and I have also seen 1.0mm walled versions around the internet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Tried it all, surgical, vinyl, silicone etc. They sell that very cleat vinyl tube at Ace hardware stores here in AZ. I'll tell you this, that vinyl tubing is super tacky. Sick the BB in a inch and getting it back out is tough.

For a test bed use a block of plastic like Delrin. It is cheap and easy to drill. Put barrel on one end, put air cylinder in other end using a rubber vacuum hose from auto parts store and then cut and drill as needed for the hop up. Seal it up with squeeze silicone, no need to be pretty. clamp it to a table and fire away.

Try these guys, they ship quick and it is prices well. http://stores.ebay.com/NorVa-Plastics?_trksid=p4340.l2563
 

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I'm not sure that the PVC is as sticky as vinyl; I am hoping not. From speaking with other members here and elsewhere that have experimented with longer buckings, the FPS drain is substantial even at ~10mm. My thinking is that you'll need at least 3-4cm to have a smooth hop area that wouldnt be too dramatic for the BB.

Unfortunately my time is vey limited, and at the moment I am torn between continuing down this path or going after a rifled barrel, at the same time I'm wary of having to make my own ammo.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Yes, PVC is not as sticky. Perhaps the opposite in that it is slick actually. Perhaps that is what you need. I don't know.

I think there is room to improve round projectile actually. Think of it in terms of that. you first need to clearly define a problem. making it better is to general, you need a specific domain to attack. In my case it is BB's flying right and left that bothers the hell out of me. That is a design shortfall or so I think. So in my case I am specifically trying to solve left and right fliers.

Stabbing in the dark with different hop up nubs or styles is guessing really. I would say frame the problem in a narrow specific range. They try to identify the problems that cause the issue. Then try to design a solution to that. Then build that.

A design has to address a specific issue or it is all just guessing and the results may be less than satisfying. In fact even if you have a deliberate plan it may not turn out well but at least you would know what does not work since you control the variables.

I just think there is more to the problem if unstable flight or lack of precision groupings that just the nub. If it was just that the SCS or other scheme would do quarter sized groupings at 100 feet and the accuracy would scale with range. As far as I can tell every hop up scheme involving magic nubs yields about the same results or nothing that is statistically significant.

If you frame your design too broadly there are too many variables to control. In my case I am making a whole gun. Well that is easy, the ONLY thing that is new or untested is the hop up area'ish. The gun is just there to hold the design. Once I have that I can swap out and in different variants of the hop up design.

Mind you it is not JUST the hop up, actually it is not that at per say it is something else. That is where I clam up.

Perhaps you have done analysis perhaps not. I would say lots of time thinking about a specific issue and then how to solve that specific issue is step 1. Once you solve that then you move on to the next issue. A big bang solution is likely to not happen the odds are against it. Too much subtly involved and unintended effects.

In my opinion the issues extend way beyond the hop up and another flavor of hop up is going to work about as good as all the rest. There is something everyone is missing. Or so I think. And that was after 7 months of plowing through it. Bing, light bulb came on.

Ehhh I could be wrong too, but I am having fun. :)

Frame the problem narrowly. Reduce the variables in flux. The problem is knowing what the problem is. :)

Just providing insight into how I am attacking the problem is all, Hope I am helping. :(

pm me if you need any thing. You can call me as well.
 

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What about a sabot round ;)

Have more of a cylinder style round, with the actual bb inside. When you shoot the cylinder it grabs the rifling inside the barrel, thus spinning the bb as well. When the sabot exits the barrel after a few feet the sabot breaks away and the bb is left to fly to your target ;)
 
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