I am a Christian and I have something for you to listen to.

@Leo Greer you are confusing evolution with selective breeding in your example of the great Dane.
Wolves didn't evolve into the domestic dogs we have today they were breed to have these traits.

Selective breeding is where you take an animal with the traits you want and breed it with a similar traited animal to produce offspring more likely to take the parents traits, repeatedly doing this ends up with creating the breeds we know today. People are now creating miniature husky breeds through this process as well.

Evolution is essentially being born with a genetic variation/mutation at random. This can have 3 outcomes in the wild.

1. The variation causes a significant advantage to the offspring causing it to dominate natural resources and/or breeding driving the original variation to die out.
2. No advantage or disadvantage, the variation blood lines lives on and simply becomes a variation/subspecies. (Best comparison is how some peoples earlobes connect to thier head and some have dangling earlobes or people with webbed toes)
3. The variation actually hampers it's development and ability to survive and the bloodline dies out.

If people died out and couldn't disrupt the natural order it's likely that a lot of existing domesticated animals would evolve vary slightly. (Except cats as they already considered themselves gods and are stubborn as hell)(disclaimer cat part is a joke about not evolving).

Also don't forget evolution may not result in a physical outside appearance change but could be internal as well a lot of people only think of external changes.

In recent times document evolution has been limited but that's for good reason, we as a species have dominated, controlled and destroyed the planet, by the time we started to properly document every trait and have been able to test DNA sequences we've nearly wiped out most wildlife on the planet. It doesn't stand a chance of adapting and evolving as we are killing it too fast and driving it to extinction.

Another good read is about the English red Vs American grey squirrel, when the American squirrel was introduced with its genetic variation it's caused the red squirrel population to dive as it could outcompete for resources Yet besides colour most people would say they are the same from just looking at them. Yet they are both still squirrels it's just genetic variations.

But anyways let's go back to shooting little plastic balls at each other for fun even though it's terrible for the wildlife. (This is my biggest issue with the sport we need to become more environmentally friendly quick)

My example about dog breeding was not meant to be an example of “evolution”. In fact, I never made that comparison, I called dog breeding speciation (or natural selection, with humans replacing the forces of nature).

I don’t disagree with your summary of mutations. In certain cases certain mutations do
provide significant advantage, such as in the case of the staphylococcus bacterium. Staph are exposed to so many antibiotics that strains are now immune, through the process of mutation. Also interesting To note, is that mutated bacteria, while better suited to their environment, still have a mangled original gene, which gives them less genetic information, and makes them unhealthier as a whole in any environment that does not include antibiotics. This is because many antibiotics target key proteins in the bacterium’s system (our cells and probiotics use these as well, which is why antibiotics ruin your stomach), and when bacteria come into contact, the antibiotic destroys or bonds to the proteins and kills the bacteria. The immune strains occur when the gene regulating protein production mutates. The bacteria is left with a slightly different protein that the antibiotic cannot attach to, but it also has a less-than-ideal protein in it’s system.

I feel like the largest flaw in your argument is that you fail to recognize the flip side: aren’t we humans also creatures? In fact, we have documented our own genome far more than any other species on the planet. In an evolutionist worldview, we are simply the dominant species in our ecosystem, evolved to higher levels than other creatures who used to kill us. Shouldn’t then the evidences of our continuing evolution be stronger than any other species? I did a google search for “ongoing human evolution”, and most of the internet seemed to believe that humans are still evolving, and some sites argued that we are “evolving faster than ever”.

How would you quantify wiping out most of the wildlife on the planet?

The point of this forum is clear to discuss shooting little plastic balls. However, the point of this conversation is to discuss other things. Continue or leave the conversation at your whim—it’s the power of being online.

Leo Greer said:

How would you quantify wiping out most of the wildlife on the planet?

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Recently survey's show an average of 69% reduction in wildlife numbers since the 1970s


Although it does mention in some areas it's as extreme as 94%. These are horrific numbers.

We are still evolving arguably intelligence and height are the common "positive" traits we would see trending through time. When you reach top of the food chain things slow down as thier isn't a survival of the fittest element anymore. But we are also at a point where we control the environment and aren't responding to outside stimulus as much anymore. As a species we have made certain illnesses or physical deformities that would have been a death sentence 50-100 years ago just an inconvenience or even not an issue.

1tonne mentioned being rich means you won't get into heaven and yet by virtue of your birthplace you are already considered richer than most.

If You Want to Be Rich, Choose Your Country of Birth Wisely

Wouldn't being born in a western country not doom any Christian from the get go with our lifestyles of excess? All this disposable wealth to buy Airsoft stuff when that money could be used to help others? We are on a forum for a sport that is a pure luxury in life and replicates the act of killing a fellow human and paying good sums towards it and actively harms local wildlife in the case of outdoor ganes. Surely that goes against some core morals and rules?

I would also be interested in your opinions as Christians on the floods in Pakistan as this seems to be a replica of the flood in the bible, was this an act of God is so why or why not? What is the difference?

I don’t play because I like the idea of killing people. I play because I enjoy running around testing my skills in a competitive setting against my friends. I dislike bloody video games or other mediums that more accurately simulate killing folks.

Floods in Pakistan? The number one difference would be that one was a local flood and one was global, at least according to the Bible. Afterward God swore he wouldn’t destroy the earth with water ever again. (Obviously the flooding in Pakistan doesn’t quality as destroying the earth; I’m just throwing facts)

I tend not to try and read into the meanings of natural disasters. If they have some sort of meaning, it’ll be clear enough to the people the Lord wants it to be clear, and probably a mystery to the rest of us.

Aside from my personal leanings, in the Bible there is a precedent for the Lord destroying corrupt cultures through natural disaster, but the Bible does not contain listings of every natural disaster that happened at the time, nor if all natural disasters are in the same character.

And, some things aren’t specifically acts of God, but consequences of the world we live in. Yes, God created that world, but I feel there is a difference between a specific occurrence like Noah’s flood, and things like death, which are a natural consequence.

I’ll put out a very difficult statement to make; I believe that everyone experiences hardships, but that those hardships come in different ways. Physical hardship is a big deal (a big deal), but there are lots of other pressures at play. To clear it out, I live in America, and in most of the world having such a hobby as airsoft would be considered an extreme luxury. The question then becomes; should we be ashamed because of perceived lack of hardship or excess of luxury?

Personally, I don’t think there‘s a reason to feel shame. The way I was brought up was that when you have more than others, you use what the Lord’s given you to bless people around you. There is shame in hoarding what you have; there is no shame in using in what you have to help bless the lives of others.

I have several friends who aren’t able to go play airsoft because they can’t afford it, but the Lord has blessed me with the money to own and the skills to service that old A&K SR25, and those two Cyma AKs I have just sitting around. Airsoft is definitely something that can become a trap for selfish money, this I am in full agreement with you. But, it’s only selfish if you keep it to yourself.

"I've always believed in God and His son Jesus, but my faith truly deepened after a life-altering experience in my younger years. It made me realize how real God is and how much we fall short of His standards. It completely changed my perspective. Speaking of hardships, we all face different struggles in life. Some may be physical, while others may be emotional or financial. I personally believe that when we're blessed with more, it's an opportunity to bless others. There's no shame in enjoying our hobbies or possessions; the key is using what we have to help and bless those around us. I recently came across a website called First Church Love (link: https://firstchurchlove.com/), which offers valuable insights and support on matters of faith. It might be helpful to check it out, especially during challenging times.

CrisitanoRonaldo said:

I've always believed in God and His son Jesus, but my faith truly deepened after a life-altering experience in my younger years. It made me realize how real God is and how much we fall short of His standards. It completely changed my perspective.

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Sometimes, you need something big to wake you up to the reality of God. When I was younger (aged 18), I used to scoff at Christians. I even scoffed at my parents. Then one day, I too had a life altering experience that showed me the reality of God and how evil I was.
I had an accidental drug overdose, died and saw things that changed me forever. Most people who die, tell of stories where they saw heaven or hell. I did not see those. Instead, I was shown a movie of my life and I had to answer for everything I had done. I had to answer all through my entire life to when I was a baby. So, now, I have memories of being weighed in the scales in the Plunket rooms as a very young baby. I told my mum about this, and I described how the walls were painted and the colour the room was an off green colour. The scales, they were old and had the adjustable weights and had a green cloth that my mother had to lay me in. My mother did not want to put me in the scales as I was already crying and the cloth part that she was to put me in, was very cold. I was also able to say the size of the room and that it had benches most of the way around. After this experience, when I told my mother, she was amazed. I had described it exactly.
By the way, you never, ever want to go through that experience. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. As He spoke, it was like fire all around me. A consuming fire and you could not escape. (Imagine being in a bonfire and not passing out from the pain.) For a very long time afterwards, I did not want to sleep as I would have flashbacks and wake up screaming. So, most nights I would lie in bed with the light on, staring at it so that I would not shut my eyes. Inevitably, eventually, I would fall asleep and then relive the experience and wake up screaming.
But I needed this, as I was living a life that was leading down a very dark path.
I have been able to tell many people about the experience and most people are amazed and some are frightened.

I have had some non-believers and also some believers say to me that I did not die and that it must have been my brain playing tricks on me. If I did not die, then that is fine. I do not mind if people think that. The big thing is that God changed me that day. And that is what counts.
(Much bigger story to this and it is really amazing)

One other thing. Although my testimony is amazing, I would rather tell people about the goodness of God and what He did for us. So, the good news.
My testimony is the reason for my faith. It is how I came to believe. But it is not what I put my faith in. My faith is in Jesus and that on the day of Judgement, He will find us innocent because of the sacrifice He did for us. He put Himself in my place. What an amazing thing to do.

Now, because I know how real God is, and I know that we will all be judged one day, as a believer, it is my responsibility to warn others of this judgment. In the Bible it says that we are to love our neighbour as we love ourselves. And if I do not share the Gospel with people how, loving is that. - It is not loving.
So, as believers, we need to equip ourselves to be able to share the Gospel with non-believers. Jesus even commanded us to share the Gospel. And if we disobey, then how much do we really love our God? Obey Him and tell others of His great sacrifice. Love God and Love your neighbour.

Rocketa said:

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, evidence I’ve yet to see it in any observable way, shape or form. Science and observable reality give me far more comfort than supernatural dictatorship or faith.

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Do you mean how scientists observed evolution? Evolution is taught as 100% fact in science books. But yet, no scientist has ever been able to observe it. It is only a theory.
A scientific method is based on: “The collection of data through observation and experimentation”.
How can someone observe evolution when the process is said to be over millions of years. Nobody can observe it. It is only a theory.

Rocketa said:

Those eyes and the brain he apparently gave me as a gift, what do babies born blind or with horrific abnormalities or mental disabilities, what did they do to be so unworthy of those gifts I’ve been given?

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They didn't do anything. We live in a fallen world. Sin has entered the world. This means that over time, creation has been in a downwards spiral. So, getting worse. (God allowed sin to enter creation. It was part of His plan. Otherwise, we would be like robots and always do as He commands. So, He gave us free choice)

On a different note: The second law of thermodynamics is the law of Entropy. As one goes forward in time, the degree of disorder of any isolated or closed system will always increase. (Or at least stay the same)
I just said that creation is in a downward spiral. This matches what the second law of thermal dynamics states. Evolution on the other hand says that everything gets better. So, science contradicts itself.

1tonne said:

Do you mean how scientists observed evolution? Evolution is taught as 100% fact in science books. But yet, no scientist has ever been able to observe it. It is only a theory.
A scientific method is based on: “The collection of data through observation and experimentation”.
How can someone observe evolution when the process is said to be over millions of years. Nobody can observe it. It is only a theory.

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Supposedly, the human species has existed for about 315,000 years. We also supposedly evolved from apes--chimps in specific are supposed to be the most like us--or some other similar species. However, unlike the falsely touted claim that human and chimp genomes are 99-98% similar, recent research has revealed that the gap is much, much larger, at 72% of base pairs. This means that humans have 896 million genes that aren't even found in the chimp genome. For humans to have evolved from chimps, we then must've acquired those 896 million base pairs. Why then, has the human genome never acquired a new base pair in the time we've been tracking DNA? 896 million is a huge number--humanity supposedly took a mere six million years to evolve, gaining over a hundred base pairs a year (more or less) every year.

edit forgot to cite my sources: Comprehensive Analysis of Chimp & Human Chromosomes edit

This is also a conservative estimate. DNA is like a language; the context matters. So therefore, not only do the 896 million base pairs have to materialize, they also have to order themselves in an extraordinarily complex structure that will kill or severely impair the creature if done wrong. All by never observed, never repeated, inexplainable mechanisms that work by pure chance.

Sometimes, when human genetic code is distorted, it results in no effect, or effects that are so minuscule as to be unnoticeable. Other times, it produces crippling genetic diseases that would result in death without modern medical care. It also produces cancer, one of the great modern killers.

A single protein-building gene, when moved in position, is enough to kill an organism.

According to science, evolution, even from apes to humans, is a far, far impossibility that's never been observed or documented.

Technically evolution isn't even a theory, because it cannot be proved or disproven, due to the historical nature of the events it supposedly explains.

The idea of evolution has the exact same scientific clout as discussing whether Abraham Lincoln was real or not: neither are observable or repeatable, and both must be researched using historical sciences.

So, I go to the parks and tell people the Gospel. You would be amazed at how many people enjoy the conversation. I have many who say that they have never heard the Gospel said in such a way and it made sense.
Anyway, something I have memorized about DNA is this:

"So, you believe that everything happened by chance? That nothing was the intelligent force that made everything. Yes.
Let’s say you were holding a nature study book. Filled with stack loads of information and all sorts of amazing photos of trees, and plants, and animals.
Now imagine that nothing was the intelligent force that made this book. That nothing produced the colour pictures in the book? That coloured ink fell from the sky and formed itself into the beautiful pictures? And then black ink fell too, forming itself into coherent words, and sentences and making sense? Page numbers fell as well, all in order, and then it bound itself and formed itself into a book.
Obviously, this is ludicrous. Intelligence was needed to design and make the book. It couldn’t just happen by accident – Would you agree? Well, yes. Someone had to make the book.
We all have our own book. It’s our DNA. Scientists call DNA the instruction book for life. It is like a massive biological code book. If those instructions, were laid out end for end, they would go to the sun and back several times. So, this information book is massive.
Every living thing has DNA, this makes the nature book just seem feeble compared to the infinite intelligence that made DNA.
The fact that there is intelligent information in this DNA book tells us there must be an intelligent designer. Intelligent information can’t just happen by itself. Just like the nature book can’t just happen by itself.
So, my question is, what do you think of the mentality of someone who believes a book fell together without a book maker?"

I’ve not seen or heard any serious person with a scientific background refer to evolution as anything other than a theory. It’s Darwin’s Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection. Us evidence based types don’t mind calling ideas theories. We might be wrong and we’re okay with that, unlike some belief systems who are CERTAIN they’re right. Not pointing any fingers or nothin’.

I suggest you contact the publishers of these books you refer to and perhaps ask them to make an addendum.

So God is cool with the most innocent of us being born horrifically enfeebled or mutilated. This perfect being beyond time and space, who created all of existence somehow let evil sneak in. This is starting to sound an awful lot like “Somehow Palpatine returned…”

This creator might be a bit sloppy. And he expects, nay, commands us to love and fear him? Compulsory love seems a bit shady to me.

I’m noping out at this point, I’ve no interest in talking to the indoctrinated, I just thought a point of balance for us secularists might be in order.