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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have often wondered how a "suppressor" may work for the pressure and volume of air exiting the barrel.

In this case I modified a g-spec suppressor with dense, soft insulation from the hardware store to create a cavity. I used my desktop microphone and audacity to generate frequency plots of the shot + 0.1s. I don't know how long of a period should be measured.

A picture of the suppressor.
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Gun firing without suppressor. #1, #2.
Colorfulness Purple Azure Rectangle Slope
Colorfulness Purple Azure Rectangle Slope

Gun firing with suppressor. #1,#2
Colorfulness Purple Rectangle Slope Plot
Colorfulness Purple Rectangle Slope Plot


Colorfulness Purple Azure Rectangle Slope
Colorfulness Purple Rectangle Slope Plot

Looking at both, there is a noticeable decrease around 300Hz, with frequencies below 1kHz dampened by about half.

It is possible this was just wobble/natural frequency in the protruding section of barrel... it is possible to test or calculate this.

It would be great to collect similar comparisons, many people have adequate microphones and audacity is free.
 

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This is brilliant. There's a couple of issues with standardization though. That's mic quality and gain. Even if people were to follow the same protocol, and you'd have everyone using the standard 1 meter distance from a gun with a gun facing the same way to measure the sound, the results would vary because of the different mics and how they're set up (omni, shotgun etc).

This is valuable data, though. You can measure the effect of fart flap and other similar mods. You will also see how big of a difference it makes to correctly volume the cylinder. Not only will you make your gun more gas efficient, but correct voluming will also noticeably reduce the sound a gun makes. Length of the barrel has a significant impact here as well -- a longer (and tighter) barrel makes things quite a lot more efficient until a certain threshold is crossed, and the sound it makes is very much decreased. This is very apparent with HPA sniper rifles or DMRs. You can get them to be the most silent guns that exist, while still being extremely accurate.

You could try how much patterning reduces the sound as well. Cut small pockets into the foam and you should see improved results. Actual, steel silencers should work very well as inspiration. Increased surface area with pockets > basic stock foam.


Also just as a complete side note, I've seen the scotchbrite trick mentioned multiple times in threads like these. Please don't use it. It's a very bad material for anything gun related. There's a lot of micro abrasives it gives off on each shot, and not all of them exit the barrel. The abrasives in it (aluminum oxide and titanium dioxide) aren't good for your barrel or for the internals. With some luck you won't have much of it, but some portion of it simply can not be avoided. It's not even that good as a material for actual sound dampening if you do this kind of testing. Anything porous without abrasives that has similar energy absorbing qualities is better for the gun. Even if you were to get some gains over foams, which I doubt if you pattern the foam (and which makes no sense on SB due to releasing even more abrasives), it's so far from being worth the absolutely marginal gains at the cost of adding micro abrasive particles to your gun's internals. And that's assuming it would even be marginally better -- it shouldn't be.
 

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I've never really spent a great deal of time considering the ins and outs of suppressors other than to find those YouTubers who do make comparative videos and then make a more informed choice based on their findings, but recently I've been chatting to SS and decided to delve a little deeper - by which I do mean only marginally, I don't want to obsess over every .db gained or lost.

A couple of points I am currently pondering:

Types of "noise" - airborne and vibrational. The silencer/suppressors we commonly use happily address both in that the foam will, to some extent, dampen vibrations from the piston return, whilst the volume of the can itself will help to reduce the pressure of the airflow generated by the cylinder and therefore counteract that sometimes very noticeable "pop".

Composite foam baffles. I did undertake some reading on the subject of foam density and how it affects sound absorption and reflection - the short version is that differing densities affect different frequencies so it behooves us to employ a variety of foams in order to cover as much of the frequency spectrum as possible but in any case, we should employ densities of 29 kg/m3 and above.

So....I have an old can sitting here which is a prime candidate for some experimentation. The ID is 39mm so I have a bunch of M8 40mm stainless washers which I will reduce in diameter to 39mm and slide into the can itself, alternating with the foam already inside. Hopefully, this will compact the existing foam (increasing its density) and also provide benefits akin to a baffle stack with reference to reducing the velocity of the air behind the BB. Recording the results and analysing them in Audacity (which I'm familiar with from other projects) should be easy, and if I can beg, borrow or steal a decibel meter then I can take measurements with that as well....then post them here!

Further thoughts: Change the material of the washers from steel to rubber (easily available) and then the potentially expensive part - purchase some higher density foam and cut that to size.

Worth mentioning - Sound pressure levels double every 3db and increase in magnitude 10x for every 10. Perceived loudness doubles (i.e. subjectively sounds twice as loud) every 10db. The smallest amount humans are generally regarded as being able to determine as a change is 3db. The ear isn't equally receptive to all frequencies and is most sensitive from around 2khz to 5khz.

Interesting topic! If I can beat my friend's G36 at around 72db I shall be happy.
 

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In the real suppressor world pretty much all of the DB numbers are lies, and are taken in different environments on different guns with different calibers, bullets, barrel lengths, test methods, test machines, averaged vs cherry picked, and different people exaggerating the numbers. This leads to buys/owners saying that sound doesn't matter, which is dumb imo as there's no other reason I'd spend $200 tax, half a year of waiting, and up to 2K on a suppressor.

For airsoft we don't really advertise DB numbers, which is good as there's lots of different guns, power sources, powers, and all the other stuff I mentioned. The only reasons to have a can in airsoft are to cover an inner barrel, look cool, and of course make your gun quiet. No arguments for flash or whatever people say about real suppressors. Our sound sources are a lot different than firearms as we are dealing with cold air, or cold heavy gasses like propane and CO2. Real cans do a lot of silencing through rapidly cooling down a high volume of hot combustible gas, and less so on actually trapping gasses as that is near impossible except in weaker stuff like .22LR, 9mm, .32ACP, and similar things with less excess gas behind them. Since we are dealing with much lower volumes of gas at much lower pressures at way way cooler temperatures, we can get more creative and cheap with our materials and designs, which is pretty convenient.

I have experimented with a ton of different open cell foams, a few different Scotch Brite type things, decent amount of baffle materials, hull lengths and diameters, hull materials and wall thicknesses, hull coatings and wraps, end cap styles, and cap covers and coatings, end cap diameters, internal structures, and pretty much everything you can think of.
The best things I've found are
  1. Calmflex F2 foam
  2. Tight holes in baffles/foam and end caps
  3. Thick walled hulls
  4. Anti vibratory materials for the hull end caps, and hard pieces. Thick aluminum helps, but copper, lead, or brass would be ideal.
  5. Anti vibratory wraps or coatings like rubberized paint, powder coat, or various cloth tape. Dynamat Xtreme and similar things are probably the best, but they do add weight, and need a protective tape or sleeve on top of them. Another thing may be layers of heat shrink, both to cover a sheet of rubber or Dynamat, or as a anti vibe layer itself.
  6. 2 stage designs with "breaker" hard baffle stacks or cores in the start of the can to disrupt and significantly slow gas and sound, making it easier for foam or similar materials to absorb.
  7. Air stripper type things in end caps and the beginning of suppressors to shave away and redirect sound and gas. You can look up "airgun air stripper" and look at what they look like, they are a little like a muzzle brake or compensator but more for accuracy than recoil management. They are mainly used for competition airguns, but could likely be applied to airsoft for both accuracy and suppressors.
  8. No flat baffles. You want reverse cone shaped stuff that will "shave" air away instead of just have air smash into it. it's good to try and direct that gas in a way where it will crash into oncoming or leaving gas and slow the other gas down, as this is what the best suppressors seem to do. Also a good idea to add as much surface area as possible to surfaces seeing a direct blast, with things such a coatings, rough textures, or 3D printed/machined designs. Real steel 3D printed suppressors are becoming very advanced due to the design and manufacturing freedom that comes with 3D printing.
  9. Hull length and diameter. Longer is better, but fatter isn't. 29-35mm is about the perfect diameter from my findings, and very similar to what airgun people prefer for calibers .177-.25.
The reason we see a lack of this is because it isn't really a priority to companies, and will probably be a bitch to ship to the USA. The cans may likely would not work well as there isn't a lot of crossover with designs and all that, but it would likely not happen here nonetheless. DonnyFL airgun suppressors seem to have done well here, but the ATF isn't exactly fair and I would not expect any success for a good airsoft can. We are alright with our foam stuff as it is sort of a grey area, but I wouldn't push my luck. Also the lack of ease of use when it comes to the average airsofter, as on the whole, we are pretty damn stupid. Tighter holes are better for sound suppression, but along with trapping gas and sound they will also trap BBs if your gun or parts are not well centered or whatever, you run shitty BBs, or any number of things. Airsofters are barely able to wrap Teflon tape on their barrels to stabilize them, so I doubt they could be trusted with any suppressor with a hole smaller than 15mm lmao.

I don't really get into measuring sound stuff as it's expensive, variable, and I don't care to learn a ton about it, so I just rate everything by ear as that's the main thing I'm trying to achieve, something a human ear has a hard time reading. It's good to test sound from different distances, as sometimes a gun will be quieter when you are shooting it than than when you are in front of it, and sometimes the other way around. It's good to test front and sides as shooters position doesn't matter for our needs. Test environment is also important, as a forest with lots of leaves/needles and vegetation will be much quieter than a mowed field or bare forest like how mine is during the fall, winter, and spring.
There is also sound type or pitch, as although a quiet high pitch noise will seem quiet, but at range it may be louder seeming than a lower and louder noise. High pitched sounds travel further, and they are usually more attention grabbing to a human ear. This is why the MK23 does so well even though it is relatively loud compared to my M4 or old sniper, it has a very low pitch. There is also sound duration, which is something to consider. The longer a sound happens or the more times it happens, the easier it is to hear and then even track it's location. I use this to my advantage when stalking and murking AEG players as an AEG takes a long time to cycle, and most need multiple shots or even full auto to make a hit. The shorter and less frequent a sound is, the better. This is why the Wolverine BOLT is so good, as it shoots without venting any air elsewhere, and fires instantly. Other HPA engines that need to cycle a nozzle will be louder due to the time it takes them to cycle and fire, especially open bolt ones, but higher PSI and lower poppet and nozzles dwells will remedy this and speed things up.

Lots of writing, but a good use of a lunch break.
 

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3D printed baffles perhaps....wonder if there's a cost-effective way to acquire some. 39mm OD x 8mm ID, cone-shaped.......Dynamat Extreme is easy enough to source, but kinda expensive. I'll put those ideas on the back burner until I establish where we are with the materials I do have.
 

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You'd probably wanna get glass or carbon fiber nylons or one of the rubber filaments, I don't think regular old plastics would do well. Tried plastic, tried printing a hull, cap, and baffles, and it was pretty loud.
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You can get some aluminum sheet somewhere, and have a form 3D printed and make the cones yourself. I've never done it, but I've seen it before.

Dynamat isn't 100% necessary, but if you put it on the inside and outside of your end cap, and outside your hull you'll get a pretty good bit of dampening. I got a 24X24 sheet a couple years ago and still have most of it. Maybe $20 at the time, expensive enough but not in the quantities I sue
 

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I think the obvious step for me is to get some Dynamat and slap it onto the receiver, under my foam-filled rifle rag......it's pretty quiet anyway so really I'm heading down the rabbit hole with no rabbit at the bottom for lunch.

(Joking, I don't eat rabbits. My Grandad used to skin them at the kitchen table every Saturday and the smell put me off for life)
 

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They really stop that pop sound you get that's for sure, i noticed a big difference for the foam i used worked a treat.
You lose a little fps but i was really surprised when i stuffed mine with foam, much less noise whilst using a 150 & 170 spring.
I have one of those Rapax Hulk springs from Skirmshop strictly for plinking and target destruction, i still haven't fitted it but will be interesting to see if the suppy would be able to make it less loud with a spring like that.
 

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You'd probably wanna get glass or carbon fiber nylons or one of the rubber filaments, I don't think regular old plastics would do well. Tried plastic, tried printing a hull, cap, and baffles, and it was pretty loud.
3d printing "air chamber pockets" with TPU is a really cool Idea! Wonder if anyone has tried it? I have had the thought of trying to form some rubber but printing "cones" in flexible filament is a stupid simple and much better idea.
 

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Yeah, I think it might just work. I've seen a pellet gun suppressor (for British low power) and it had 2 rubber cones, and you'd have a different size for .177 or .22. a baffle hit with that should be less terrible with a pellet, and the part may not even break. Anything will deflect an airsoft BB, but the things may withstand baffle hits
 

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Yeah, you guys have shit pellet gun laws.
My Diana Bandit does like 14 FPE after modifications, which is illegal as a rifle there, but extra illegal as a pistol since you guys only have 12 and 6 FPE. If you wanna be really sad, look at the AEA Zeus .82 cal, you might cry lol.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanks for the fantastic input! When considering next steps I repeatedly found myself trying to define a question / hypothesis we want to investigate. Like Zynomicon mentioned, any serious and precise “loudness” dB measurement is difficult and may not be that helpful.


A summary/tangent: Lets divide the noise related to the bb exiting the barrel and noise from the cylinder slamming forward. Pinned posts point to matched cylinder/ barrel/bb weight as a critical first step to quiet a rifle. A tuned system like the wolverine bolt represents a no compromise silent solution. We reason an ideal rifle has ambient pressure inside the barrel the instant the bb is leaving the barrel, eg not expelling any extra air. So why suppressor in the first place? Does the air in front of the bb matter? How much of a difference does a large cylinder with a small barrel make? [This would be VERY nice to test with a tunable HPA engine, it would really help our understanding].


I am tempted to argue any cylinder with damping material inside at the end of your barrel is more than enough to substantially dampen any noise relating to the bb leaving the barrel and any subsequent overpressure. However, I am very interested in comparing ideas, like Doctor Jest’s interesting layer idea and the very cool foam you have SiliconeSword.


I do not think I am able to do serious relative comparisons of different suppressor concepts yet… I am at somewhat of a loss as to next steps, if you guys have any ideas?

My plan for now is to find a good way to collect and analyze the sound of the rifle firing. The problem is that this now comes to include the sound of the cylinder slamming forward. I think we can learn a lot just by trying out different sound related tweaks (from barrel lengths to sorbo pads in front of the piston)
 

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Airborne vs. Vibrational noise is absolutely a consideration for audio-dampening applications but in the interest of full disclosure, whilst I am theoretically interested in the subject, time and again in airsoft I've discovered that whilst it is possible to chase numbers almost ad infinitum, it's generally not profitable to do so. As I mentioned elsewhere, a friend of mine build a G36 with nothing but "standard" airsoft internals (silent cylinder kit and a Laylax suppressor if memory serves) but the most significant reduction in sound came from his custom rifle rag - this dovetails with everything I have experimented with since. To that end, if you truly desire a silent replica then that should be the main focus of your investigations.

I shall finish replacing all the baffles with these "penny" washers but a couple of hours lining a rifle rag with foam yields far more tangible results. Anecdotally, you couldn't hear his AEG from more than 5 feet away and if HPA were an option back then, it would have been totally silent.

My main interest lies in potential improvements I could make without ridiculous investments in time and money so a short list for me: glue foam to two of the washers, one being the foremost, the other the r rearmost in order to stop vibration against the ends of the silencer and then place the washers in the silencer, alternating between foam and a washer until it's entirely full. I might add some aluminium repair tape to the exterior to thicken the walls of the can but I doubt it will accomplish much.

Sorbo pads are worthwhile.......and if the barrel volume: cylinder volume is mostly correct (there's always leeway) then I'll "call that good" on the basis that I don't want to jump into that particular rabbit hole and my barrel is a non-standard diameter :cool:
 

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Disappointingly, I found that on my M4 in particular, the suppressor doesn’t really get rid of any noise except when dry firing. It’s well volumed, so it does its job of catching extra air… but there really isn’t any extra air when I’m actually shooting the sucker.

And besides it’s still an M4—the GB noise is way more than the barrel noise.
 
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