If your gun shoots hot then you should not engage targets closer than 100 feet. That way if your gun shoots 600fps you can come up with a minimum target distance which is what my team does. Works great. Every gun without trigger control can hurt someone.
Inner barrels resovled
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There is a substantial amount of info on joule creep already. I do not see why we should discuss this topic any more. If you are truly dedicated to learning more about joule creep, head over to Google and start plugging away. The information is there, but it is buried. I think it is best that way. If you really want to learn more, you have to put the work into it. Discussing it anymore simply makes it easier for a newcomer to learn the details about it.
An immature player will not take the hours needed to research joule creep. A mature, or at least dedicated player, will. Discussing this topic on ASF simply makes it easier to find out about that dangerous topic by placing it on the first couple pages of a Google search.
Don't discuss joule creep at your local field with other players. Why? It increases the odd that some "pay to play" player will abuse it. If you want to warn the field owners, that is acceptable.
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I really want to agree with you but, the thing is, there are places that are not as regulated as those fields you talk about, such as my location, in such, what can i do? should i let them get injured or should i try my best to influence in a positive way in "our" early stages of development as an airsoft community?
It seems truly to be an ethics issue... but, ok, ill cease to discuss this topic HERE, i respect your opinions, just wish there was an easier way to get myself educated in these matters, not sure what i think about that filther you mention at the moment, still, thanks.
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951 Posts
This is due to a fundamental flaw in the system we use to check if a gun is hot.
We check a speed, with a given weight. The speed would be limited.
While actually, we would need to measure Joule. Its the energy that does damage, not necessarily speed.
You'd need to change the rules worldwide to measure Joule, not FPS.
The main thing is, that it is controlled now. I dont see organizers measure your bb weight before shooting. It'd also be way too easy to change ammo and "shoot hot"
The only solution is to use the maximum weight BB, to see the absolute maximum joule output, and limit that.
I like the way its going now, measuring FPS with 0.20g. Its by all means not perfect, but it works well.
We check a speed, with a given weight. The speed would be limited.
While actually, we would need to measure Joule. Its the energy that does damage, not necessarily speed.
You'd need to change the rules worldwide to measure Joule, not FPS.
The main thing is, that it is controlled now. I dont see organizers measure your bb weight before shooting. It'd also be way too easy to change ammo and "shoot hot"
The only solution is to use the maximum weight BB, to see the absolute maximum joule output, and limit that.
I like the way its going now, measuring FPS with 0.20g. Its by all means not perfect, but it works well.
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604 Posts
A little bit of a necro-bump.
I think this link is an invaluable addition to this topic. The study is a bit old, but it is certainly something to think about when considering the concentricity of different barrel brands.
http://www.madbullairsoft.com/images/Advertising/MadBull Barrel Report.pdf
I think this link is an invaluable addition to this topic. The study is a bit old, but it is certainly something to think about when considering the concentricity of different barrel brands.
http://www.madbullairsoft.com/images/Advertising/MadBull Barrel Report.pdf
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604 Posts
Actually, I believe they measure the "roundness" of the barrel or how close to a perfect circle each barrel is throughout its length.
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35 Posts
I didn't want to make a whole new thread so I thought I would post here since it's a barrel related question. I have a utg mk96 that I have fully upgraded and modded. It has the following
-pdi 333mm 6.01 tight bore barrel
-pdi 333mm outer barrel
-pdi hop up
-firefly hard bucking
-piston and spring upgrade kit
-action army zero trigger
I have also shimmed the hop up for more consistency. Every thing is tight and there is no play in any of the parts. I have taken the gun apart and cleaned it so many times that screws are starting to strip out of the upper receiver. I have researched everything and I can't figure out why it is so inconsistent past 100ft. There is zero consistancy at anything past 100ft. Everything says it's the hop up but I have tweaked and tuned it so much that I'm convinced that can't be it. My only other thought is that maybe it's the barrel? I have read in several places that 6.03 are better for long range versus the 6.01 (even though I clean mine after every target practice). Is this true? Would a 6.03 give me better results for further range? I have done my research so please don't ask me to check and see if my barrel is bent or if I've cleaned my hop up. Believe me when I say I exaghsted all tactics before posting here. If I need to buy a new barrel then I don't mind but I wanna make sure it's worth it and not just advice from someone who "knows a guy who said he thinks it works."
-pdi 333mm 6.01 tight bore barrel
-pdi 333mm outer barrel
-pdi hop up
-firefly hard bucking
-piston and spring upgrade kit
-action army zero trigger
I have also shimmed the hop up for more consistency. Every thing is tight and there is no play in any of the parts. I have taken the gun apart and cleaned it so many times that screws are starting to strip out of the upper receiver. I have researched everything and I can't figure out why it is so inconsistent past 100ft. There is zero consistancy at anything past 100ft. Everything says it's the hop up but I have tweaked and tuned it so much that I'm convinced that can't be it. My only other thought is that maybe it's the barrel? I have read in several places that 6.03 are better for long range versus the 6.01 (even though I clean mine after every target practice). Is this true? Would a 6.03 give me better results for further range? I have done my research so please don't ask me to check and see if my barrel is bent or if I've cleaned my hop up. Believe me when I say I exaghsted all tactics before posting here. If I need to buy a new barrel then I don't mind but I wanna make sure it's worth it and not just advice from someone who "knows a guy who said he thinks it works."
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604 Posts
Did you really do your research and exhaust all resources? I highly doubt it....
If you had, you would realize that a PDI barrel would have little effect on precision at 100 ft (if indeed your barrel is a PDI). PDI and EdGI make the best barrels in the world, so unless you bent it, you can eliminate it as the cause of your precision issues. At that distance, you are dealing with a hop-up, ammo, or a compression issue.
As for tweaking and tuning, you have not fully exhausted your options until you try multiple setups. Simply reinstalling the same bucking over and over again is not "tuning."
You also made no mention of the ammo used in your gun. That is also an important aspect of tuning.
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35 Posts
My barrel is indeed a pdi. I only question the 6.01 being a problem because of this quote here from this very sticky on page one-
"A lot has to do with bore tightness. 6.01mm inner diameter barrels are not a good choice for long range engagements. This is because there is less space for the BB to ride on a cushion of air from the hop up. "
I know compression isn't an issue. I took the barrel off so the cylinder head was exposed. I cocked the gun, put my finger very tightly over the nozzle, and pulled the trigger. I held my finger there for around 20 seconds and no air leaked out until I lifted my finger off. As for ammo I thought that might be an issue as well so I switched to some golden ball .40's. However I still got the same result. Completely random left and right curves.
EDIT- I know that the barrel won't really effect anything at 100ft, but I'm saying past 100ft. Im shooting around the 150-200ft marks. And as for "tuning" goes I went as far as sanding down .1mm washers to shim the hop up arms and grinding down a small metal dowl to the same size as the rubbery stock nub for better consistancy. It didn't work out but nun the less I have tried.
"A lot has to do with bore tightness. 6.01mm inner diameter barrels are not a good choice for long range engagements. This is because there is less space for the BB to ride on a cushion of air from the hop up. "
I know compression isn't an issue. I took the barrel off so the cylinder head was exposed. I cocked the gun, put my finger very tightly over the nozzle, and pulled the trigger. I held my finger there for around 20 seconds and no air leaked out until I lifted my finger off. As for ammo I thought that might be an issue as well so I switched to some golden ball .40's. However I still got the same result. Completely random left and right curves.
EDIT- I know that the barrel won't really effect anything at 100ft, but I'm saying past 100ft. Im shooting around the 150-200ft marks. And as for "tuning" goes I went as far as sanding down .1mm washers to shim the hop up arms and grinding down a small metal dowl to the same size as the rubbery stock nub for better consistancy. It didn't work out but nun the less I have tried.
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604 Posts
Compression isn't just the cylinder. It must be perfect from the cylinder to the end of the inner barrel. If you can perform the same test and get the same results, but covering the muzzle of the inner barrel, then you know that compression is spot on. Careful has a video of him doing this test somewhere on this forum.
Goldenball heavyweight BBs don't seem to be very good. Consider a better brand like HPA or Core.
Barrel diameter is not as important as barrel quality. The PDI Ravens decrease in performance over time as compared to the normal PDI barrels because the coating wears off. Almost every 400+ ft shot has utilized a 6.01mm barrel or smaller, so while a bigger bore is theoretically preferable, it is only practical if you have the air volume to support it. In the end, you need to strike a balance between bore diameter, air compression, air voluming, and efficiency.
Try an extended bucking like a Maple Leaf or R/ER-hop.
You are still using the stock chamber, correct?
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35 Posts
My apologies for taking so long to respond airsoftmaniacman. But I have since ordered, and received, som maruzen sgm bbs and also tested my bucking for air compression. The compression around the bucking wasn't perfect but it was close. So I did the floss and Teflon tape mods on it and got things working perfect. I havnt had a chance to test the new bbs yet due to work and a wedding that I had to attend today but I'm hopping to get to it tomorrow. What exactly are you referring to when you say the stock "chamber"?
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322 Posts
"chamber" = hop up chamber
Hes probably going to suggest doing a TDC mod if you have a stock hop up, maybe even upgrade it to an aftermarket one if thats the case.
As for now, i think you could advance a bit by analyzing your bbs, grab a few and cut them in half, check for air bubbles, also surface inconsitencies on the bb, also be sure to wash them (some dont recommend washing bio bbs), the bb is one of the equally important factors in precision airsoft, you can have a monster in your replica but wont mean much if you are using poor quality bbs.
As for bbs be sure to research the latest trends, if you read in the past few months of bbs related comments youll find that some months ago one brand was amazing, things changed and now its crap... you have to be updated constantly, good luck.
Also, whats your cleaning process? do you use any sort of liquids? Have you made sure your scope is ALIGNED properly to your hop up?
Hes probably going to suggest doing a TDC mod if you have a stock hop up, maybe even upgrade it to an aftermarket one if thats the case.
As for now, i think you could advance a bit by analyzing your bbs, grab a few and cut them in half, check for air bubbles, also surface inconsitencies on the bb, also be sure to wash them (some dont recommend washing bio bbs), the bb is one of the equally important factors in precision airsoft, you can have a monster in your replica but wont mean much if you are using poor quality bbs.
As for bbs be sure to research the latest trends, if you read in the past few months of bbs related comments youll find that some months ago one brand was amazing, things changed and now its crap... you have to be updated constantly, good luck.
Also, whats your cleaning process? do you use any sort of liquids? Have you made sure your scope is ALIGNED properly to your hop up?
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35 Posts
My hop up is the after market pdi so it's not stock. I spent a couple hours one night making sure that my scope was level with my hop up. I also shimed the hop up and hop up arms to ensure there was no play. I watched a video on this forum about it and made sure that was done right. The only liquid I used was dish soap and water when I broke down the hop up a couple times and cleaned it out. As for bbs I know there all different and quality really matters here. Would loading the bbs by hand be better than using a speed loader to ensure that none are chipped when putting them in the mag?
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On the contrary. Loading them by hand gets grease and dirt that's on your fingers on the bb's (there's always dirt and grease on your hands, by default), which in turn affects the hop applied to the bb leading to inconsistency
Always use a speed loader :tup:
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35 Posts
Yea I found that out pretty quick. I tried to load by hand and jammed after the second shot. The mazuren sgm that I had shipped in are working pretty well. I'm accurate up to 150 ft and I'm getting closer and closer to some sort of consistancy beyond that range (around 250ft).
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5,705 Posts
Already been working on that. I am in the process of making a piston head that is only about 5mm thick for a DMR.I got a question. If you make your piston shorter you should get more cylinder volume - at least my theory. If someone with the will and funds is trying to test that we could end the rule of the VSRs
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