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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
(Mods: I noticed this section in the forums a day after posting in the gallery section for ext. ideas, sorry)
I know that there are a lot of threads like this, but I could really use the help.
I'm going to be investing in a DMR project. I want to start out with the KWA SR12 (2GX) w/ 8.4v Large Battery as the base gun and branch off from there. I'm not going to be doing anything with the internals just yet. Probably going to start out with just a bipod and a Magpul P-mag Short Type (don't know what to call the smaller version). Then, upgrading the barrel, bucking and hop-up, and then later on, working my way into the GB. Like an m150 spring, gears, etc...
I wanted to know your opinions on the SR12. Is it a good base platform? Upgradeability? Reliability stock? Anything else?
I currently have a budget of $500 that is going to go towards the gun, battery, bipod, mag, and bbs (I already have a scope). Then, as I save up more money, buying internal upgrades.
What do you guys think about my "game plan"?
 

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You're going to get a lot of mixed opinions about KWA. Personally, I think they are good guns to run stock, but have too many internal spec/compatibility issues to make a great platform for upgrade projects. Not that it isn't usable, but it complicates things.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yeah, I heard that people aren't liking the 2gx gearbox, but my friend got the KM4 RIS and his has ran smoothly on a 11.1v LiPo for a year now, so I'm getting a lil confused. Based on what you said with the internal spec and compatibility issues, could you go into detail about what those issues are? Could the gearbox handle or even be able to fit (because of the spec issues) an M130 spring?
Can I use an aftermarket barrel, bucking, or even the hop up unit (with the spec issues in consideration)?
Sorry, really don't know that much about KWA's
 

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KWA SR12 is a really nice gun to turn into a DMR.

I have a 400fps SR10 and 400fps KM4. Both outrange
most guns on the field and with higher accuracy.
A few people think I'm shooting hot, because my KWA's
make 200ft shots look easy.

I could write a novel about KWA's. Praising them and turning them into DMR's. My advice to you:

Leave your SR12 alone for a few months.
Get out and shoot it. Be sure to put some bb's through it and get familiar with how it shoots and functions.
Buy a LiPo instead of a 8.4v nimh. get a smart charger that charges lipo's if needed.
There's little need to go above a M130 spring in a KWA 2Gx gear box.
I put a SP120 spring in a 2Gx gear box and got 460fps out of it.
M130 can put you up near 500fps. Really depends on your air seal &
a tighter bore barrel will boost up fps some too.
IF you boost fps much higher than 480-490 then you run into the 2Gx bucking not giving you optimum performance. Then you'll more than likely need a different bucking. Because KWA's spec's are so tight, most after market buckings will not fit in the 2gx hop up unit.
The solution is a K-cut barrel. I know EDGI will make and PCT barrels make a k-cut barrel (rumor - for now). Google k-cut barrels and read up.

Stock 6.05mm barrel improves after a few mags worth of bb's pass through it. Very well made barrel. My SR10's stock barrel shoots
just as accurate as some $80-100 tight bore barrels.
A tighter bore barrel will just really give you a boost in fps.

Go to kwausa.com forums and read up on SR12 DMR's.



ICS's are fairly popular at my local field. When they're working,
they shoot well. I frequently see the ICS owners in the parking
area working on their guns though.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Alright, I'll get to reading!
How has your GB held up with the SP120 spring in there? Oh, and did you have to modify the spring at all in order for it to fit?
If it's running well, I might as well just buy the spring along with everything else and install it at a later time, just getting a feel for the stock gun. I really don't want to get a LiPo battery, solely because I don't want to have the risk of overcharge or anything else that could risk a fire hazard. Even though I could get a smart charger, I just don't think I need a LiPo. using a DMR, I wouldn't need the extra rps.

EDIT:
I was looking at some 120 spring on ASGI and it seems like the FPS would be around the stock FPS of the SR12 (380-410). How were you getting 460 FPS? Is it just the airseal on the internals that are giving you those results or do you have other mods?
 

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My SR10 gear box has nearly 60k bb's through it. I estimate by the dozen or so high volume bags of bb's I put through the gun. I had it running stock for 13-14 months until I noticed a drastic drop in fps and weird feed issues. I replaced the bucking twice in those months and when the FPS drastically dropped I opened the gun up just to find the piston head o-ring was worn out. I put a new o-ring on the piston head and everything resumed like normal.

The internals look great.

I'm not going to get into details about LiPo's. I've seen more locals hurt by nimh's getting hot etc
than any incident with a LiPo. I spent $50 on a smart charger over 2 years ago and everything has been running smoothly. LiPo for a DMR, SR12 set up is mainly for trigger response vs. rate of fire.

KWA SR series, KM4 RIS come with a M120 spring stock. KWA springs are shorter than some manufacture's M120 spring. The difference in lengths between different brand springs will affect
the FPS. An SP120 is equivalent to a M130 spring. Guarder SP springs produce a higher FPS than M rated springs.

I took the Guarder spring out of my SR10, because I did not want the FPS over 410 fps.
Plus SP springs since they are longer than stock KWA springs, just adds extra hassle
when working on a mech box. Just my experience...

Matrix springs fit well into a KWA. I have a M113 spring in my SR10 producing 398-400+ fps.

No other internal mods to my SR10. I learned to leave what works well alone!

After 14 months I finally upgraded the barrel. The stock barrel shoots damn near as good as the PDI barrel. Just noticed the PDI barrel has a few less wild flyers out past 200ft. More predictable flight path.
 

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Okay. Most springs are given ratings with an "M" and then a number. With this rating system, the number represents the spring's supposed velocity output in meters per second using 0.2g bbs.

However, Guarder, and as I recall, Modify, use "SP" instead of "M". The numbers that go with their ratings represent their supposed output in m/s as before but this time using .25g bbs. That is why Guarder springs are always stronger than their "M" rated counterparts.

In the case of an SP120 spring, I have found them to be roughly equivalent to the M130 spring. The most power I have squeezed out of one before is 480fps with .2s, but they usually settle around 450fps with .2s.

The stock KWA spring has varied between different production runs. Sometimes they shoot at about 400fps or so (roughly M120 strength). Others I have seen settle in around 365fps (the lower end of the M110s). So an SP120 spring will give you significantly more velocity than either KWA spring. An M120 spring won't give you much at all if it's one of the 400fps KWAs, and if it's one of the 365fps one, will merely bring the velocity to match the 400fps KWAs.

As for KWA's spec issues and why I'd choose something else, that's a lengthy discussion on its own. And, from what I've seen a subject of a great deal of debate about the nature of the gun as an upgrade platform and its stock performance. For instance, here and on ASR, I see a mix of those who sing KWA's praises, and those who feel they are more trouble than they're worth as project guns (although it's pretty much universally agreed upon that they're good stock guns). On other sites, like AirsoftMechanics, where EVERY gun is a project gun, KWA is one of the most universally disliked AEG brands.

However, reading the rest of this thread is giving a bit of a different impression from the original post, which I was responding to, where M150s and such, very serious upgrades, were mentioned. For such a build, I would not get a KWA at all. If what you're looking for is a gun that will handle an M120 and shoot relatively accurately, that's basically a stock KWA.

So my question I guess would be what exactly are you going for in this build? What are your plans?

And on a side note, since it was brought up, I've never had to fix my ICS on the field except for a piston swap. But I run that gun at well over 30rps and I use that gun to test different parts to find out what their limits are. With what I've put that thing threw it's holding up very nicely. ICSs are basically made to be project guns, and aren't really different from any other besides a few quirks. If they're constantly breaking, that's generally more a function of what the user has done with it. I don't usually recommend them to people who want to run a stock gun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I plan on making an M110 SASS style DMR. I always liked it's design.
I just want to find a good base gun that can be upgraded to 460 fps w/ .2g without issues, house a 6.03 TBB, and resemble an M110. Plastic or metal body, doesn't really matter to me, as long as it won't break from normal wear and tear.
I've never built a DMR, so I really don't know where to begin.

EDIT: I did some looking around, evike in particular because I couldn't find what I wanted at ASGI, and found a good laundry list of items that could work.
G&G M4 Challenge Kit (Tan)
Madbull Dissipator 16" Outer barrel
Angel Custom 6.01 510mm tbb
Madbull Dragon 16.25 Free Float RIS
Prometheus Hard type Bucking
AIM 8mm Complete Gearbox Rear Wired (M130
Matrix High Torque Motor
M28 Silencer
2 50rd P-Mags (Tan)
Intellect 9.6v 1600mAh

What do you think?
If you want the links, I can post them

What it could end-up looking like:
 

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^^ Sounds like a plan. ^^ please don't!
Looks nothing like a M110 SASS. M16 ris on your pimp drawing when a M110 takes a KAC RAS. I'm sure it's common knowledge that in the real gun (RIFLE!) world that a M110 is a 7.62 and Mk12's are 5.56, a smaller NATO round. The KWA SR12 was modeled a bit after a Mk12. For the love of....I really don't need the spec difference between a Mk12 and SR12. FULLY aware.

Not trying to be being mean about this, but you say you want a M110 SASS styled set up. I realize exact specs are probably not crucial and that you just want the over all look and feel of a M110. I fully understand you there, because I'm in your shoes. LOL.

I could easily tell you all the headaches and issues you will have along the way. It all depends on what you want to experience. I learned a lot from it all. Plus I have 2 large boxes full of parts & three lure boxes with mech box parts & "upgrades". I hang on to stuff in case a gun comes along and a part I have on hand ends up working out.

I spent my first few years in airsoft fighting with guns, issues, upgrading multiple brands etc. What I got out of it was an education and empty wallet (figure of speech). I saw a 2008 KWA out shoot
multiple high dollar DMR's and that's was my introduction to KWA's. Then when their new 2009 line up came out, I with out hesitation purchase a SR10. It has not failed me yet. The only issue it's had was a worn out piston o ring after 14 months of nearly every weekend play.

Flippin, I'm not real sure of your over all experiences in airsoft. Not sure if a complex DMR build is right for you or not. Not insulting you, or saying you can't handle a DMR. Nor the things that inherently come along with a complex build, or an upgraded AEG. It can be a fun experience with upfront success or very frustrating and in the end, you are still sitting home with a non-working gun. I've seen more people frustrated with non-working guns than upfront success.

For a DMR build, tolerances and specs make the gun. In my home office I have a Classic Army, G&P's, G&G's, and KWA's scattered about, and lining up the walls. KWA hands down are the best built. G&G seems like some models of theirs out shine other models. I spent the last 2 weeks teching a G&G M733 to shoot and be able to hit a target at 190ft. My G&G M14 is outstanding, but even that has some quality (material wise) issues. I just say outstanding because of internal specs and solid hop up & barrel fit. My G&P's failed me during and before BIG games. I nearly threw them in a dumpster. After going through two or three "techs" and still having issues I figured them out on my own and now one of them gets molested at every game I go to.

My Classic Army was pretty nice left stock. Then I put new bushings in and new wiring and it got better. Everything was great when I left it at 350fps. Once I tried upgraded the internals I ran into all sorts of compatibility issues. I got it shooting now. Just was not the experience I was planning on.

*Those AIM gearboxes. I would highly recommend staying clear of them.

google "why I hate AIM boxes" I have nothing to do with the site, nor did not write what was on it.
I just laughed when I read it, because I could relate. Two other locals installed AIM mech boxes into their "awesome" DMR guns and their guns still sit in their garages - non working.

I've owned JG's, ECHO1's, a TM...I know JG's and ECHO's have made improvements over the years.
I still think some of their models have a toy like feel to them though. Yeah we're shooting bb guns. TM's just aren't what they use to be.

ICS - I have seen an ICS M16 shoot very well. I know 6 plus locals have ICS's. One guy is a tech.
My experience has been when they upgrade them, something always seems to fail. Those guys are usually the ones walking out in the middle of a game saying their gun just went down. The tech with the ICS. His gun seems to be always working. It's accurate, but just doesn't seem to have the range my KWA's have. Both near the same FPS. There's a lot I like about ICS's, just going off my experiences first hand - what I witness and deal with. The guy's with ICS's will still try to sell a new guy at the field on getting an ICS while they are working on their guns to get them working again.
Cracks me up every time! :)

A couple KWA custom builds.
some internal work and external parts.


KM4 ris (SOPMOD build)

A beauty I built (wish I owned!)
internal & external upgrades


KM4 originally (URX) modeled to reassemble a SR25 carbine
technically a SR15

That's two out of the many KWA's I've worked on.

People can dislike KWA's. I'm ok with that. Means less KWA's shooting back at me on the field. :)
 

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KWA gears, bearings, cylinders, air nozzles and cylinder heads are all proprietary, some consider the bucking or hopup (still a 2-piece though) to be as well. I have seen a KWA's 2GX gear shear its axial under normal load. Not sure how that happened. I've also seen them tear their pistons pickup tooth clean off. I like them for the most part but as an owner, which I'm not, it would be very important to me to know these things prior to purchase. Proprietary gears is kinda a big deal to me. I also like the 2GX bucking but they don't last long enough, IMO. I would consider their motors on par with the G&P M120 which is a fantastic motor. KWA's are some of the best sounding replicas out of box let alone on the field.
 

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We all know this could turn into a lengthy discussion...

It seems nothing in airsoft is perfect. KWA's are not invincible, but pretty damn good.

My praise for KWA's, especially to a person with possibly little tech work experience, is that it's a good gun to leave alone. Maybe change the barrel, spring and you'll have a real nice shooting gun.
One that can easily shoot bb's at a good distance accurately. Now if you want to build a 500 fps plus gun and start changing a lot of the internals I realize KWA's are not TM spec.

A KWA shooting 450fps is a safe bet. Easy to achieve and will more than likely run great for awhile.

Now having praised KWA's repeatedly, I do know that you can fully gut out a G&P for example
and have one hell of a nice, accurate, high powered DMR. Honestly that's something not everybody
has the skills to do. It's possible, but not overly common.
I completely over hauled my G&P (sort of) Mk18 and finally have trust in it like I do my KWA's.

So, for a gun where you can install a tight bore barrel, maybe a medium strength spring, a KWA will
make for a solid, accurate DMR. I know how to tweak it for more, but that's not for the faint of heart.

KWA's and G&P's are two of favorites now. A G&P DMR will cost a fortune though. ;)
can't forget my G&G M14, but thinking more Armalites and Stoner Rifles right now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Amazing looking rifles you got there explosive!
As for tech exp and DMR building, I have little to no experience what so ever. Except for fixing my CA sportline M15a4 from motor to gear connection issue. Now its broken for good. Too many rainy days.
Other than that, I haven't built a DMR yet. I was going to go for a TM VSR-10 w/ full Laylax internals, but I'm swaying in between an AEG and a BASR.
My teammates have been pushing me to go for the DMR role, because I was the "sniper" for my group, using a stock Well MB06.

It was either replacing the M15a4 with a KWA SR10 and just getting some externals and leaving the internals alone, or building some sort of sniper rifle, whether it be an AEG or BASR.
It seems like it would be easier, and probably less expensive to go with the VSR-10. I've seen a lot of tech videos on it, and it seems easy enough.
Now, I'm on the fence on whether I should keep going with this, or be the assault role.

Honest opinions? Be harsh, I need to hear this before I go on with this.
 

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I use to own a fully upgraded (Laylax parts) VSR10 Gspec. Was a very nice gun! VSR10's can be easier to put the parts together than an AEG in some aspects.
Though bolty's need finesse for parts to be harmonies. Same could be said for AEG/DMR's too.

A bolt action gun vs. a DMR/AEG really comes down to the person who is going to be using the gun. I plan on building another bolt action later on down the road, but sold the 2-3 bolt actions I've owned. They all worked well, just did not fit with the types of games I was playing and field terrain. Normally I'd spot the opposition around 120-20 feet. I found bolt actions are great in more wide open areas & I play in the woods, or fields will 7ft tall grass/weeds.

Ah, I have a CA M15a4! Pretty much becoming a 400-420 fps Mk12Mod1 at the moment. Will look like a DMR, but technically not be one. Just one of those guns I have as a project and work on it when I can.

After reading your last post, my mind immediately goes to an SR10 being a good fit for you.
This is mine & I love it!
(bottom gun)


SR10 will give you the "assault role" right out of the box with the ability to upgrade it later on into a DMR.

This is a PIMP document that I worked a bit in Photoshop.
Just an idea of the potential to convert an SR10 into a DMR set up.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Looks great! I'll probably end up getting the SR10, magpul magpul's, AFG, and slap on one of my RDSs. Good thing I have a whole bunch of MAG brand 170rd midcaps from my CA. Maybe get a flip off holographic sight magnifier for my G&P holo sight. That way i can engage people at all sorts of distances.
See, at the field I play at, it is very open, with little cover, except from bushes, the occasional bunker and trees and each other (lol). (Mr.Paintball). So, I guess a BASR could do well there, as most of the firefights are from long range, usually ending up with bbs on the ground rather than on their skin.
I think I would have the patience of building a BASR, but not the tech exp to make a DMR. I'll do some calculation on pricing, free time, and make up my mind.... hopefully.

If I may ask, what are the rubber bands on your ACOG on your SR10?
 
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