[SiliconeSword]

I second the black target, I have 320mm and 500mm circular steel plates that I've painted matte black and hung from trees at set ranges, very useful. I will eventually set up a large piece of metal roofing painted black, but I'm content for now.

 

[SiliconeSword]

That's very good, I'd be pleased with that, but like yourself I would still try to improve it.
It seems that your barrel is lapped which is a VERY important step, and I trust that your tuner is the guy from Facebook, who seems to be even more serious than I am, so you may be about at ultimate accuracy with plastic BBs.

I will be trying some Begadi buckings in my M4 and homemade DMR, so I think it would be interesting for you to try out their VSR/GBB ones as they seem to have the best description of any bucking out there.
I would also recommend trying my SS-nub, it can be made very cheaply and is obviously my favorite nub out there.

One more thing that will make a big difference is sorting your BBs.
I'd see if a BB sorter similar to the Laylax one could be built, but within the size range of your BBs and maybe split into a couple more different sizes for the sorted BBs to be more alike.
This would be done by using a plate of metal or plastic, drilling lots of holes in it, and reaming the holes precisely with your desired size of reamer. You would then make walls for it and a catch box underneath, or smaller size plates underneath. This would be best done after washing your BBs, and maybe coating them with your own wax or coating.
I would also look at THIS video from our own WYZ2285 about polishing BBs. I think that although it may be less important these days, I bet that at your level it will improve results at least a little bit
The BB sorter will be an eventual project of mine, but currently my guns are just meeting my expectations after years of screwing around, as well as BB polishing, but again it is pointless for guns where the BBs are not it's limiting factor.

 

[SiliconeSword]

Well sometimes BBs from the same bag will be 5.93 to 5.95mm, and it will depend on where you measure them as they are not always round. I think that if you did make a sorting system like the Laylax one but with different sizes, you'd see an improvement. I'd do 5.93-5.95 as there's rarely stuff larger or smaller, and I'd go up by half, so 5.93, 5.93.5, 5.94, so on. I'm certainly going to try this, maybe in 2023 when I feel like buying a handful of reamers and spending a day drilling holes.

Pretty much all BBs have a wax of some sort on them. In theory it makes the BB better as you can smooth out scratches without losing weight, so the BB will go farther and be more accurate. I've not experimented much with this yet, but I think that it could have promise.

I'm not sure exactly how @wyz2285 polished his BBs, but you could simply attach a soda bottle to a drill and tape the trigger on a low speed for a while, or use a cheap rock tumbler. This will reduce size and mass though, so as little as you can get away with us best.

 

[SiliconeSword]

1 When shooting off of a rest, I think that you would have to be moving an awful lot to change results, but like when shooting anything black powder or air powered, hold the gun as steadily as possible during and after the shot in order to not sway things. Since airsoft guns, airguns, and black powder have a longer delay between the trigger and actually firing, there is a larger gap to mess things up. With airsoft traveling at 300-400 FPS, the BB is in the barrel FAR longer than any real bullet, so that increases the window to mess things up even more. This also sort of applies to very long range rifle shooting as well since the room for error is so small.
Some optics also change their point of impact depending on where your head is positioned, and due to our bodies not being 100% repeatable and rigid, these scopes and other sights will yield a very large group.
Idk what causes this exactly, but some things do it and some don't.

2 I think that bore diameter has little to do with accuracy, only bore quality, which is why a well lapped barrel will outperform everything on the market. You could replace your barrel with a larger bore if you can afford the experiment, but I predict you will see no change and have spent $200 on a part you don't need.

4 I would suggest that you follow my SS-nub guide in my signature.
For buckings or R-hops I haven't really figured everything out so I can't really give you any solid comment, but I think that experimentation is important. The Maple Leaf Autobot 2021 bucking is a solid choice, along with the Decepticon, but I have little experience with the MR so I can't say much about that. I am trying out some Begadi buckings in my DMR whenever they arrive, so I'll see how those are compared to everything else I've tried, so they may be worth a look for you.

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5 I heard about these guys that would sort BBs for a fee like 8 years ago with some proprietary technique, but I never heard much about it, and the website has likely disappeared since then. I believe that HunterSeeker5 was a part in that, and from my attempts at conversations with him, he was not at all informative or helpful. He has since disappeared along with his website and YouTube channel, for the better I'd say.

 

[SiliconeSword]

Forgot to mention this in my other post, but there's two ways to sort BBs.

Sorting by weight categories, this will affect the amount that BBs hop up or down, which has helped a bit in my experience.
Sorting by size, this will likely sort the BBs into weight categories just because, but sorting by size is important since if a BB is .01 mm larger than another, it is getting pushed into the contact patch of your bucking .01mm further, giving it more hop than smaller BBs. I think that this is the more important type of sorting, but it is more expensive than a $30 scale. Of course, once you make or buy something similar to the Laylax BB sorter, you can sort thousands of BBs in a matter of minutes, while with a scale you will spend a very long time sorting BBs.
For ultimate supreme ultra mega accuracy, you would be sorting by size and then sort the size categories by weight, but this is only important if you are an absolute madlad sniper, or are doing target stuff like @Cripplegunner.

I will be trying those ASG .48g BBs as they are $25 on a site I occasionally use, but I do wonder about polishing BBs in a rotary tumbler type machine to see if cheaper BBs can be improved.

Also, one thing that is less of an issue but still probably exists is BB porosity, where BBs have air bubbles and may be unevenly distributed, making BBs curve in various directions due to having an uneven center of gravity. This is an issue with cheap FMJ real steel ammo where there will be air pockets in the tips of some bullets, making the projectile have a non concentrical flight pattern, significantly widening shot groups.

 

[SiliconeSword]

2 Well they should all be better .47-.485g, so you should split them into as small of categories as you feel like.
Personally, I'd do it by the third decimal, but that'd be about 20 different groups.
It wouldn't take any extra time really, you'd just need more little containers.
For bubbles, I think that BLS and ASG are probably pretty decent, but all you have to do to compare air bubbles is look at horizontal spread. Vertical spread will be weight and size inconsistency, but horizontal will be down to how round they are and how the air bubbles are.

3 I suggest that you try all of that individually, and then just use the things that make a difference. With most BBs these days, I think that washing is unnecessary and polishing may be pointless unless the BBs are really bad, but sorting by weight should be good, and sorting by size will probably be about as good but a little more difficult.

Start with weighing though, a scale is cheaper than all of the reamers, material, and costs of having a size sorter made.

 

[SiliconeSword]

Hi again. I spotted that my Panther stalker nub in AA chamber arm looks like this.There is yellow (empty) space between nub and arm. Do you think it can matter? For example giving not equal pressure between shoots and affect on trajectory? Omega from Maple Leaf fits great, but its just hard rubber, so its not strange.


View attachment 21242

I think that at this point for you, you are chasing minute improvements, and this would be a minute improvement.

My nub is molded inside of your chamber, if you've seen my tutorial thread, and will account for any weird tolerances in your chamber or arm.
Nubs usually have to be made to fit all batches of AA chambers, but my nub will fit the exact chamber you have perfectly, and will help noticeably, especially compared to an Omega nub, which I absolutely hate.
If you read the posts from other people in my thread that have tried an SS-nub, they are quite pleased with it, if that helps.

I find that hard nubs that are attached to a very rigid and stable arm is the best for everything as it is 100% repeatable hop with no squishing or movement, so I would not bother too much with rubber nubs. I've tried a few on the market plus a bunch of homemade ones, and molded epoxy which is essentially plastic is the best. Metal would be good, but it's harder to machine something perfectly than it is to use the piece for a mold for a nub, as you will have a fit tighter than .0001 of an inch, if the chamber will accept that.

 

[SiliconeSword]

I'd have the barrel cut down to 410-440mm.
I think that a bit undervolumed is fine, but 180mm longer that recommend is a lot.
I think that at high power the barrel ratio stuff matters less, and with varying piston weight, cylinder volume, and nozzle hole diameters it will change it even more I bet. I think that 370 with a .48g is a little short, especially with a 6.01, so I'd do 390mm at the minimum, with the suggested lengths above likely being better.

 

[SiliconeSword]

I'd say that all you really have left is try shortening the inner barrel, which may not change much, try my nub, which may do something, and sort your BBs, which will be the biggest thing I'd bet.

I think we're both running out of things to do on our guns and have gotten really close to what airsoft is capable of, as it seems like your gun is probably better than 95% of what the users here have.

 

[SiliconeSword]

I'd try to get the cheapest barrel you can get, and cut that down yourself.
Then once you find the length with the best power, find out the volume, and find out how long your PDI would have to be to match that volume, and add another 10-20mm.
Then cut the PDI to that length and crown it(or pay somebody) and you should be set.

I wouldn't sell the PDI unless you are going to buy a DaVinci, EdGi, or ESCW barrel as anything else will be a major downgrade, especially since your barrel is lapped.

 

[SiliconeSword]

I suggest that you buy a hacksaw, a metal file, a deburring tool, and a chronograph, as well as the cheapest barrel you can find.
Cut it down to 500, chrono it, cut down another 10mm, and repeat until you lose power.
Then calculate the internal volume, see how long a 6.01 would have to be with that volume, and add 10-20mm to that just to be safe. THEN you would pay Dexter to cut down and crown your barrel, but you could always just do it yourself as I find that a shallow Lambda style crown is absolutely fine.

As for 5.98 barrels, I think that just calculating the internal volume and adding 10-20mm on top of your existing barrel will suffice. This stuff is very susceptible to variables like

• Nozzle inner diameter
• Barrel surface finish
• Hop pressure
• Piston weight
• Spring power
• Spring characteristics
• Cylinder volume
• Piston length
• Piston friction
• Temperature
• BB diameter
• BB friction

So this means that while 1Tonne's stuff is great, it isn't gospel, it's a starting point and you have to go the rest of the way yourself to perfect it to your individual set of variables.

As for 5.98 boosting accuracy, I believe it may do that but in a more roundabout way, as there will be a weaker spring to achieve the same power, possibly a lighter piston, and therefore a different pressure spike and less vibrations throughout the gun.
Minor, but these things all add up when you're at this level in things.

 

[SiliconeSword]

For barrel diameter, I have yet to try 5.98, but I've tried many 6.01s, a number of 6.03s, a couple 6.04s, and many other of the wider bores, including a 6.21 that I made.
From my tests, the trajectory of the 6.21 was very weird as it seemed like the BB was dropping sooner, and when I adjusted the hop to flat it would still not shoot as far.
This was with the same bucking, BBs, and Joules as the other barrel I was using in that gun at the time, so the only variable was the barrel.
For everything else, it all seems fine, but I've not done much with 6.08 or 6.12 so I won't say anything decisive about them.

I think that where @Cripplegunner 's coming from is somewhat true, but only in 2 circumstances.
Number one is that you are getting sand or other large bits of matter in your barrel, and they are bumping the BB, or your BBs are reused/incredibly poor quality. The last one is less of a thing as BBs have gotten much much better in the past 5 years since I've been playing, with them apparently being very very bad like 15 years ago.
The second case where a 6.01 would be less accurate is because it has high spots.
A barrel with high spots (all but EdGi) will be not as accurate as it could be as there is not a smooth stream of air surrounding the BB, it is getting interrupted and is uneven at times, causing side and up/down hop unpredictably.
Or worse, the BBs are actually physically contacting the inside of the barrel and having the same thing happen, but worse.
Number one is because of the Bernoulli principle I think, and number two is just like having lots of Hopups or maybe little ricochets inside your barrel.

This will be worse with a 6.01 compared to a 6.08 if they have the same bore quality as there is more of a buffer zone around the BB, but this is only if the bore has a poor surface finish.
This is where high quality barrels or lapping come into play, as high quality barrels will have zero high spots and be 100% smooth, and lapping will wear down those high spots and make most any barrel just as smooth as an EdGi or better depending on your skills and lap type.

So to sum it up, tight bores MAY be less accurate than a larger bore, until they are all perfectly smooth, in which case they will be the same in terms of accuracy, and you would hopefully pick the tightest one so you could use a weaker spring or less gas, and run your system at a lower stress level, and maybe even reduce sound or boost accuracy through less vibrations and waves.

@kociec I haven't done any paper groupings past 40m, I shoot at steel plates past then, but I'd estimate about or better than 40cm at 70m with perfect conditions, to be conservative. I may be able to do better, but I don't want to overestimate lol.
I am currently in between guns at the moment, as I am trying to part out and sell a sniper I completely made, and I am in the process of transferring the Polarstar F2 in my M4 to a new body I have that is nearly ready, so that isn't quite ready yet.
My M4 is in gaming condition but I would not like to share it's results, as it has a couple errors of my own that are partially the reason I am making my own version of the Wolverine MTW to replace it.

In a couple months when I have traded some stuff for an outer barrel and have made a Hopup chamber that I feel is to the best of my abilities, I will gladly share shot groupings from that, and later on my second homemade sniper I will try and do the same as well.

 

[SiliconeSword]

Also, I'm in a bit of a situation like what you are in, as my best accuracy from my M4 was when I had a 6.01X469 Lambda barrel that I lapped and R-hopped, and I then traded the barrel for a bunch of magazines and used an Airsoft Philosopher 6.04X475 that I also eventually lapped (it had visible waves inside), which I then sold and bought an Angel Custom 6.01X640 with, that I have lapped. The Angel Custom I think is too long judging by my accuracy, and my DaVinci 6.01X650 I was given for testing seems to say the same.
I think I will cut down the Angel Custom to find the right length, and then sell it and cut down the DaVinci to the right length until I buy an ESCW barrel.

These are all when I had the Airsoft Philosopher barrel

F2 Range Test 50m

1.6J with a .30g BB

youtube.com

 

[SiliconeSword]

We've kinda been trying to say that there's really no such thing as copying somebody's setup when it comes to snipers, as there's just so many damn variables.

Like I've said, get a cheap barrel and $40 in tools that you should probably have anyways, and cut down the cheapest barrel you can get ahold of, calculate it's volume, and cut down your existing barrel to the length where that volume would match plus 10-20mm.

Honestly your gun sounds great, and to advance to a further point you will need to figure some of this stuff out yourself as this is really squeezing out the last 5%.
We can give you advice and guidance, but our numbers are purposely vague as we do not know an exact answer, as there is no answer.

 

[SiliconeSword]

I find that less than 175mm of unsupported barrel is perfectly fine.

As for the Laylax, it will be okay, but it really does need to be lapped to be as good as the lapped PDI.

As for outer barrel, I would use the Maple Leaf 370mm barrel and have the barrel be supported while making full use of your suppressor.
Or get one of the longer ones and run it integrally suppressed and then maybe even put a suppressor on that for maximum sound dampening.
Or you could use whatever you have right now, it really doesn't matter.

 

[SiliconeSword]

I do something similar, but I do layers of paper under the original clip instead.

I have experimented with using just an R-hop and a O-ring instead of a bucking with varying success, but I know exactly what to fix for my next try.

 

[SiliconeSword]

Well PDI and Lambda are identical for all intents and purposes, but using the correct length is in fact important.
As for accuracy, I think that you will be about the same or slightly worse as the barrel will be as good as a stock PDI, so I'd use it for a while to get an idea of what it's like, and then have it lapped or lap it yourself.

 

[SiliconeSword]

That would make sense of why Cripplegunner prefers ASG .48g BBs, as they do generally seem more consistent.

If you want the best possible accuracy, yes, but maybe running ASG in itself will be enough for you.

No reason to throw away those BBs, just use one group at a time so all the shots in that one weight category shoot the same, and when you run out of that category you'd switch to the next one.
I'd save the heaviest ones for the most important stuff, as they will buck the wind slightly better than lighter ones.
What would give the best results is to maybe try and get a large supply of BBs to get them all from the same batch, and get them in bulk to save money if possible. I'd then sort them as you wished, as to have many individual weight groups but have a decent amount in each category.

Maybe a more expensive scale(idk if it's worth it), maybe make a Laylax style BB sorter(idk if it's worth it), experiment with other buckings, I really like Begadi buckings in my DMR these days, much better than Maple Leaf, and try any little mods that can help stabilize things.
My nub should provide some noticeable improvement, so I'd see how you feel after that.
The Modify X-range also seems interesting, so it'd be cool to see different combinations with nubs and buckings.

 

[SiliconeSword]

Dang, lots of people with medical stuff, I broke my hand last week even and am rather limited on what I can do for the next month or two.

Anyways, for sorting BBs, it seems that ASG has done it for you and it may not be worth it, or may be less worth it.
I'd price out your time, the cost per BB, and compare the performance of each BB before you make any plans, but I'd do this.

1. Buy a few brands, including the cheapest, and maybe Modify and Novritsch.
2. Compare those BBs without sorting
3. Compare those BBs after sorting into exact categories
4. Compare those BBs after sorting into 3 or so categories
5. Find out the cost per round of each, and find out the time spent on each one
6. Find out if there are any possibilities of bulk discounts. Even if it seems expensive, calculate the cost per round and think about it as how many free bags of BBs you'd get when comparing single and bulk.
7. Calculate all of that, and pick the option that suits you best.

Personally, I am happy with BLS but I will be trying ASG at some point to see how I feel, but as more of a player than a target shooter, and a poor one at that, I choose BLS.
I will be comparing how many shots I take with BLS vs ASG as I may shoot less with ASG, and actually save money when playing.

As for bulk purchases, I have bought .30g by the bag since I started, but I will be buying a 25kg bag soon for like $280 shipped, which is a hell of a lot cheaper than 1kg at a time, so although it's expensive in the short term I'll be saving heaps of money.
If I were able to get sniper BBs like this that'd be great, as those are an awful lot more expensive.

 

[SiliconeSword]

The majority of the gameplay I do these days is with an "assault class" gun at 1.7J with .30g or .36g depending on conditions, and it's definitely a lot of fun, but I can understand people not liking it. My gun is an integrally suppressed very long M4 with an HPA engine, and weighs less than 5 pounds, and is dead quiet, and pretty accurate. Being HPA, and being that I actually know what the settings on my FCU do and know how to adjust my trigger, I can beat the limit of 24 RPS my field has employed in semi, if I try very hard. I do not do that, but this gun is essentially the most competitive rifle you could use in an outdoor game.

As for shooting positions, I don't rest my gun often, I just shoot again, but with an airsoft BB being inside of a barrel 5X longer or more than a real bullet, we are more prone to shifting the gun while the BB is still coming out of it, making worse accuracy. This isn't super important for lots of stuff, but if you only have one shot, or are shooting at long range or at somebody's hand, this does matter.
And as for target shooting, you should never shoot unsupported and have any expectations of your gun, as that will be the #1 thing to blame for your shitty groups.

Muscle support isn't as good as bone support which isn't as good as ground support which isn't as good as being stuck in concrete, but we use it as it would be ridiculous to play effectively if we couldn't move in weird positions and quickly. This is more of a firearms thing as a twitch at 50 yards is twice as bad at 100 yards, and by the time you get to 200 yards a miss is likely. For airsoft, this only really applies to some sniping stuff, and even then we can get away with whatever we like quite well. For target shooting this is important, but you would probably have a bench or bipod, and have a nice chair or be lying down.