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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hello,
Today finally I did some tests with my fully upgraded VSR-10 by famous Cracow tuner - Dexter and check what is the real performance of my gun. With real measured distances and with no bullshit like “I shot a guy in head from 150m using stock JG BAR-10 5 times in a row”.
Config of VSR:
· PDI 6.01 500mm
· Maple Leaf Autobot 80 deg
· AA HU chamber
· CNC Panther Nub
· full set from polish “bart_a”, carefully polished : piston, cylinder, cylinder head & nozzle, spring guide, spring, 90 deg. trigger
· inner barrel stabilizer – propably AA
· VSR-10 Marui Base
· Hawke Vantage 3-9x40AO optics with Leapers mount
· 3.55J using BLS 0.48g
I have tested my gun in really good conditions: 30mins before sunset, absolutely zero wind in place presented in photo. Shooting was quite fast, about ~90sec per 10 shoots with knee position without any additional support. I think my aiming error was about ~5-10 cm per 50m and ~15-20cm per 90m. Ammo was carefully washed and dried.
Results of shooting presented on the photos. Size of paper sheet was 90x120 [cm]. 50m and 70m distances I aimed directly in black cross and for 90m I aimed just ~25cm above cross.
I also have experimented with 100m – I could hit target size of jacket in one of photos with about 50% eff. I needed to aim about 1m above. My bb flight trajectory is as flat as possible. I don’t use over-hops, because my most common shot distance is about 40-70m.
What I spotted:
· Shooting in long ranges like 90 or 100 meters needs perfect levelling of a gun. Any tilt in left or right side will result with missed shot, because BB will turn aside in last flight phase.
· BLS BBs are not perfect. Sometimes I can see BB, which could fly away in random direction with no known reason. It happens randomly, generally maybe in 1-2/10 shoots. Probably its manufacturing errors.
· I’m not super shooter. I have some problems with tilting a gun, especially in left side
· Few months ago I have experimented with hi-end bbs: Longbow 0.48g and have terrible results. About 2x worse accuracy than BLS. Why? Magic :p

What do you think about this results? Maybe you have tested your guns? How your VSRs performance looked like?
I'm looking for opinion - is this result fine? Or there is a place to achieve better performance? What you think should I try to impove perfomance? Another bucking, nub? Should I enlarge PDI 6.01 window? What accuracy on 50m or 70m you will say is good grouping? Thank for any help! :)
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Discussion Starter · #5 · (Edited)
Guys, can you tell me what do you think about those result? In 1-10 scale how much will you be content with accuracy as mine? Or another question: What accuracy is possible to achieve witch best possible setup/what best accuracy you saw in your airsoft career using VSR? ;)

Yesterday I have enlarged my window in PDI 6.01 500mm barrel in Dexter lab i Krakow. Now I'm going to test another setups (currently have Panther CNC + Autobot 80) like:
1. Mr Hop 85 + Panther nub,
2. Mr Hop 85 + Omega nub,


If it won't result in better accuracy in next step I will test 3."X-range 70" and 4."Decepticons 80" with some combinations with nubs above. Also bought one more time Longbows .48 for second chance witch perfectly cleaned system and different setups (as above 1-4).

PS. Do you also have white traces/marks of bbs in the barrel? I spotted many of them after using BLS .48. Is it normal? Pics below.


Hope to find my gold setup. Wish me luck :)

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thx, yes Dexter from Cracow "Seriwis Dextera..." did this enlarging operation. I'm lucky to live 10 minutes from his workshop.
Sorting bb's? Hm I'm not sure if its not impossible in home conditions. We just wanna catch 0.01mm differences. Im not sure if its possible without specialistic stuff in home conditions.
Using wax? Wut? It won't destroy hop up effect and will dirty the barrel? How you wax bbs?
Polishing - I heard about it. Your movie shows that it works (i watched it before, about 1y ago), but how to do it with my bb's? He just show results, but not how to.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
For all these years I am shooting BB's with everything you can imagine : From spring pistol to a top notch snipers...



...and 70 meters :
View attachment 21188
OMG. Is it even real? What is the size of this target? Its 14x14 standard target? Your score beat mine few times... How did you achieve as good accuracy? Looks impossible for airsoft. What is built of your gun?
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hi Cripplegunner. I left message for you in "Conversations" in your profile :) Looking for your accuracy ~10x10 [cm] and mine 45x45 [cm] on 70 meters we can say that your accuracy is about 4,5x times better that mine. I'm shoting since 2008 using airguns, I can achieve accuracy like 5x5 [cm] on 50 meters without support with spring airgun, so lets say I can shot a little bit. I think that my accuracy on 70 meters is far worse than yours on this distance. So my questions are:
1. Do you really think I can go from 45x45 to 10x10 just by practising shooting? I think, that my error is far less than gun & BB's error.
2. You said that you replaced 6.01 with 6.03. Do you think that PDI 6.01 isn't the best option for accurate shooting and should be replaced? PDI is widely known as a best possible inner barrel on the market. Now I dob't know what to do? Replace it with 6.03?
3. What BB's and weight did you use to achieve results as presented above? Did you do some magic like cleaning/sorting/polishing BB's?
4. Will you replace something in my config? I have nubs like: Panthera CNC red nub, Omega (maple leaf) and custom flat like this LINK and rubbers : Mr Hop 85, Autobot 80 and Decepticons 80. Do you think that there is any "gold config" which can give better results that all other? Ofc combined with AA chamber, PDI 6.01 500mm inner barrel and cleaned BLS 0.48g.
5. Is there any cheap way to sort out outliers BB's like <5.94mm and >5.96mm? Can it imporve accuracy?

All tips will be very helpful for me :)

Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 · (Edited)
1 . There is no way to jump for a day from 45 x 45 to 10 x 10 cm. It is big "PLUS" that you have some experience with air guns. Don't think that I make this groupage every day ! These results are my best of the best. and something very important : I am shooting ONLY indoors
2 . Once you get 6.01 barrel - leave it . but do not attempt to increase the power and the BB's will fly like crazy bees more often
3 . My top ammo is
ASG Airsoft Precision Ammunition Heavy - production of Accuracy International UK . They cost fortune but I don't care about the price ; 1000 BB's are 32 Euro but I am happy of their performance . Sometimes I am shooting with a Valken from USA. They are very close to AI, but not very much . Sometimes I use also Jeoff's super precision BB's. But AI are the best . I trust to my suppliers about the equality and the size of my BB's If they said 5.95 +/- 0.001 mm I am agree ;-) Sometimes I am checking the weight and didn't found any significant differences in the weight : +/- 0.02 g. When I am going for top sfooting I am weighting like 100-150 BB's and choose only these who were 47.98 grams , what the jewelary scale shows. for a long range shooting the weight also is not less important than the diameter.

4 . I would go for a omega nub + Decepticons 80 degree .
5 . BLS are just a middle hand Taiwanese BB's for the wide market . Don't expect miracles from these BB's . Go for AI, Valken or Range Force. Well, they are expensive but for them the compromise with the quality is not an option ;-)
Stay well mate , and keep me posted what you have in your scope and targets ;-)
1. You have 70meters of indor conditions? Wow, amazing! Really want to have base to testing as you have :)
2. So what energy in your opinion is the best with PDI 6.01 500mm barrel using 0.48 BB's?
3. I saw this AI BB's LINK for 130 PLN = 28,5 Euro in my local shop (no shippping cost!), but nobody never mentioned them as a good BB's and even test them, so I never think about them as BB's worth to testing. Did you ever tested BB's like: Novritsch 0.49, BLS 0.48(or by Specna Edge Series), Geoffs 0.45 BIO, Longbow 0.48. I tested Longbows on 3 configs (Maple Leaf buckings and omega and panthera nubs) and has a huge spread (down-high especially) comparing to middle hand BLS. Longbows were much more slight, so maybe they don't want to cooperate with silicone rubber like ML '21 series?
4 & 5. Why this config? Why you think it will fit the best? Just asking. I will inform you all in this post. I hope I will improve my results in future and attach better targets photos.
6. Do you wash/polish/other magic your AI BB's? Or just loading and shooting?
7. " Sometimes I am checking the weight and didn't found any significant differences in the weight : +/- 0.02 g. When I am going for top sfooting I am weighting like 100-150 BB's and choose only these who were 47.98 grams , what the jewelary scale shows." Can you expalin it with more details? What accuracy your jewelery scale has? 47.98 grams you mean weight of 100 BBs or one BB? 47.98 sounds like weight of 100 (100 * 0.48), so 47.98 is just sum of weight of 100 BB's with average weight ~0.4798, but its just AVG so can be BB's like 0.45 and 0.51 and avg is still 0.48.

Cheers!
 

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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
1. So you don't wash and sort AI bbs trusting their balls are good enough to be shooted straight from bottle?
2. Why you think silicone based buckings arę bot good? All popular models now are silicone based like all ML's or X range. Rubber bucking had problems with cold shots, and for sniper it was huge disadvantage.
3. How much spacers between inner and outer barrel you have? I have only one in my gspec.
 

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Discussion Starter · #25 · (Edited)
How much you paid for scale? And what model and brand you use? Is it accurate to catch 0.001g differences?

Also questions : how often do you clean barrel inside? Its better to do it often when white marks/tracks occurs or should I let barrel be "lapped". BLS lapped IT really fast.
 

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Discussion Starter · #27 · (Edited)
Ok.
1.When you weight your BB's - mean this Airsoft Precision Ammunition Heavy - production of Accuracy International UK. What accuracy your scale has? For example if you measure the same BB what is the spread?
2. And second question - how you group them? More like 0.47/48/49 or with more details like 0.475/480/485? What differences are possible to catch with scale like this ~20$? I found them in polish market also and wondering if its worth it. Did you ever tested accuracy with and without sorting? Big differences you achieved?

Cheers Mate!
 

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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
1. I have just ordered one bottle of AI for 23,80 EUR, hope it will fly good. It's very nice, that you have friends for entire life, which send you sometimes little gifts. Military really integrate men. Is sad that you only achieve1/10 of their salary. You all risk your lifes in the same level. :(
2. "1 : 0.472 - 0.475 / 2 : 0.476 - 0.480 / 3 : 0.481+ " seems to be really precise splitting. I wonder if you spot anny difference if you for example shot 10 bb's with weight 0.472 and 10 with 0.482. How those groups will look like without changing HU adjustment. Yeah man.Bubbles inside BB's are nightmare. And we can do nothing with it, we can even check without destroying BB where the bubbles are. I also think that crazy wasp are mainly bubbles, no diameters or weights.
3. Yes. I understand. I dont want to " polishing, measuring with calibrators, oiling, wiping, kissing and explaining in love to the BB's ", but just pay attention for the most important things, which affect on my results the most. So I ask you a lot, becouse I see you have huge experience. Now I see that main factors of good shoiting are things like: good BB's striaght from bottle, stable FPS and good HU config. Thank you, cheers!
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
Hi again. I spotted that my Panther stalker nub in AA chamber arm looks like this.There is yellow (empty) space between nub and arm. Do you think it can matter? For example giving not equal pressure between shoots and affect on trajectory? Omega from Maple Leaf fits great, but its just hard rubber, so its not strange.


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Discussion Starter · #33 · (Edited)
Hi Doctor Jest! Nice to see somebody to talk about Longbows. So! I tested them...twice. First time on configuration 1."AA chamber/PDI 6.01 500mm/Autobot 2021 silicone 80/Panther stalker nub". System wasn't cleaned after previously used BLS (about 500-1000 BB's lapped the bucking and barrel for this type of BLS BB's) and there were white "marks" on the barrel and bucking. I load Longbows and accuracy was about twice worse than BLS. Both BLS and Longbows were previously cleaned using warm water and dishwashing luquid and after that of course pure water rinsing. I shot about 40 bbs and sell this expensive shit to another player. After 3 months I run them one more time with thinking "maybe system (mean bucking and barrel) was just dirty/lapped for BLS, so BLS worked fine, but Longbows no". I cleaned everything as possible and run Longbows 0.48g again. Using previous configuration and two new: 2. "Autobot 2021 silicone 80 and Omega nub" and 3. "Mr Hop 85 and Omega nub". On every truly clear barrel&bucking configuration I run about 15-30 BB's and I saw big spread of shots. Firstly(1-5 BBs) they flight good, after few shots they just started no moving down. I strengthened the pressure in HU and they were flying ok in right-left directions but tottaly big spread up-down. One BB can fly about 2-3 dots over cross, second in point and third 2-3 dots below cross. After running about 15-30 BB's I just stopped tests and tried another config and after all I just sold the BB's to no waste more money. 0.16 PLN per BB is a bit expensive for polish citizen ;) So my question guys are:
1. Maybe I should try shot more than 15-30 BB's to let BB's "fit in system/lapped the barrel & bucking". F. ex. 200 BB's after will it be better?
2. I spotted that Longbows are more "slippery and polished". On chrono BLS gave 3,60J and Longbows 3,70J with the same settings. They propably run faster by the barrel and also did no marks on bucking and barrel.
3. Maybe Longbows are just to much "slippery and polished" to achieve good backispin from silicone bucking? Maybe the just need rubber bucking, older type?
4. Maybe Longbows are not as good as before anymore?

Everybody says that they are great, but in my VSR they fly much worse than BLS from medium hand. So many questions and no answers. I'm starting to freak out. Why they don't fly better than BLS? Also you maybe know...Longbows are manufactured in EU/UK? Or its just rebranded Taiwan BLS or sth like this?
Thanks guys, cheers!
 

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Discussion Starter · #44 · (Edited)
So guys.

Current config of my VSR:

  • PDI 6.01 500mm with enlarged window
  • Maple Leaf Autobot 80 deg/ Maple Leaf Mr Hop 85 (mounted Mr)
  • Action Army chamber
  • CNC Panther Nub/ Omega hard rubber nub from Maple Leaf (mounted Omega)
  • full set from polish “bart_a” made on CNC, carefully polished by famous Dexter : piston, cylinder, cylinder head & nozzle, spring guide, spring, 90 deg. trigger
  • one inner barrel stabilizer – propably AA
  • VSR-10 G-SPEC TM as base
  • 3.7J using 0.48g on setted Hop Up (currently)

What guys you will reccomend to repair this config for best possible performance. You may suggest as many changes as possible. Barrel 500 --> 430. What diameter 6.01 or 6.03? Sth more? I need to do some plan. Maybe I will sell barrel and replace it with shorter one, but I need full plan with no more fuck ups. What I want? 3+J and BEST possible accuracy with no compromises.
 

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Discussion Starter · #47 ·
Yeah, 370mm was extrapolating from the current data, it could well be too short - and I'm not cutting down my Edgi to find out :) If I get a chance I'll dig out an old barrel.

Other than that Kociec, you might fancy a TDC? It's probably not essential with your current rig but it's there as an option. Any chance you can get hold of a slightly cheaper barrel if you're unsure about cutting down the PDI? I'd be wary about taking the plunge too.
I think about buying LayLax 6.03 430mm. Is it good idea? 500mm 6.01 PDI to sell...
 

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Discussion Starter · #49 ·
Ah mate, don't put me on the spot regarding sales - I like to keep hold of too much gear! Laylax makes fine barrels, PDI are (IMO) better. If you can live with a cheaper barrel to see if a shorter length makes a difference, then you could keep the PDI and have it cut later on potentially. I think Action Army manufacture both a 6.03 and a 6.01mm barrel at 430mm, as do Maple Leaf - and they should be a lot cheaper......£45 for a 6.04mm crazy jet, £40 for the 6.03 Action Army, and £44 for the 6.03mm, compared to £55 for the Laylax.

I wouldn't be too quick to sell the PDI - they are lovely.
Lovely..but too long. And I don't wanna cut it. I would rather sell it than cut.
 

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Discussion Starter · #52 ·
So guys what range of ratio will be ok for 0.48bbs and 3.3-3.5J? Any freaky tech guy can help? Today evening I will calculate my crafted cylinder Volume and need to know what I should aim for :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #56 ·
Without going into details I have option to replace PDI 500mm 6.01 for brand new PDI 430mm 6.01 by exchange without paying. Do you think this move will be good enough to end topic of barrel length and no playing without many cuttings by 10mm per one and doing many crowns and spending $ for every single service (I have no as specialized tools). I dont wanna to make it perfect and cutting milimeter by milimeter trying to find best possible length with 1mm accuracy, but have a optimal +/-2-3 cm length and good enough ratio.

Doctor Jest you and most of VSR users use 430mm, right? Its te most common choice for standard VSR config? :)
 
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