R-Hop Modification

15306 Views 71 Replies 11 Participants Last post by fortjp500, Apr 15, 2013

TheHunter

Discussion Starter · Mar 27, 2013

So i was over analyzing the R-hop when i noticed that when it is pressed down it is more flat and not very concave. So i came up with this idea, has anybody tried taking an R-hop patch and slimming it down along the sides to where it is not very wide but still concave and then gluing it to the bucking? That way when the bucking is pressed down with a flat nub the patch will keep its shape and just move up and down depending on the amount of hop needed.

Has anybody tried this? If not does it sound like a good idea?:shrug:

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vindicareassassin

· #2 · Mar 27, 2013

I tried something similar to what you are describing, but using my long hop nub and dual tdc. (I dont use an R, ER or IR hop nub by HS5 I use my own design of vertical floating nub & dual tdc screws so the fore and aft balance can be independently adjusted, but it always remains level from side to side)

Basically I made a long H nub but found it only needs to rock over by a very small amount and it'll hop the BB in that direction and the only way to counter it is to tilt the rifle.

I now use a solid nub that is flat as its easier to control the flight path with only 1 point of contact on the BB rather than the 2 :shrug:

TheHunter

Discussion Starter · #3 · Mar 27, 2013

I think you are confused with what im saying.
I didn't specify that the slimmed patch is suppose to be glued to the INSIDE of the bucking.(forgot to put inside)
I am not really talking about the nub.

Masterjuggler98

· #4 · Mar 27, 2013

Are you thinking of what The Builder does with his custom barrels? He cut a long, thin slit as the hop window and made his own patch to fit inside it.

TheHunter

Discussion Starter · #5 · Mar 27, 2013

Is it concave?

The reason why i am saying slim up the R-hop match is so that it will fit between the barrel window, and then it is attached to the inside of the bucking so it can move up and down while still maintaing a perfect concave shape.

Maybe this will make it easier to understand...So you know the mound on the inside of a bucking, now make that longer and more concave.

Masterjuggler98

· #6 · Mar 27, 2013

You would have to make the hop window much wider, or make the r-hop so thin it isn't concave any more. The Builder used a long and thin patch, formed by putting a rod inside the barrel and putting oogoo inside of it (mugh like the j-hop). Technically it is concave, but it's only a mm or two wide so just barely. Why do you need it to be concave? I would think having only one definite point on the bb be contacted is better than a larger area or multiple points, like Vindi said. The point of the r-hop isn't to provide a wider contact patch, but a longer one. The Builder's method gets him over 300ft of range (at least that's what he says) because of the elongated patch, even though it is very thin.

TheHunter

Discussion Starter · #7 · Mar 27, 2013

Well with it being concave it can center the bb, making it more consistent.

If you just have a long thin strip the bb can make contact with the strip a little to the left or right and give it spin that will make it curve. The bb will not hit the patch in the exact same spot every time.

So have you guys found an oogoo that wont rip? Because i saw on the j-hop thread it ended with vindi showing how the bb put a hole in the oogoo patch.

Masterjuggler98

· #8 · Mar 27, 2013

I'm assuming The Builder's method of having it long and thin made it so it doesn't rip. The barrel will keep the bb centered enough that the .05mm or so of wiggle room won't make a difference, although I could be wrong. The Builder has no problems with it, and the traditional single nub in a bucking didn't have that problem, so it seems like a non-issue to me. Although this is not personal experience, so don't quote me on this.

TheHunter

Discussion Starter · #9 · Mar 27, 2013

So by saying that you are perfectly happy with your range and accuracy?

Masterjuggler98

· #10 · Mar 27, 2013

I never said that, but to be honest I am pretty content with a little less than 300ft. What I'm saying is the wider contact area only seems to throw the hopup off center. I'm saying that miniscule amount of wiggle room shouldn't make a difference, and the thing that does matter is how fast the backspin is applied to the bb. If the backspin is applied slowly, THAT is what will make it stable, not a wider contact area. You completely misunderstood me.

TheHunter

Discussion Starter · #11 · Mar 27, 2013 (Edited)

I still dont think you are understanding this. A CONCAVE patch not wider patch will only center the bb more. Do you understand that?
The contact patch is not wider. it would be slightly thinner than the regular R-hop patch. And in regards to your comment on it matters how fast the backspin is applied, i never said it has to be a short contact patch, so i don't know why you threw that in there. You can make it as long as the bucking so that the hop is applied slowly.
The only thing this mod would do is center the bb in the exact same spot every time. NOT apply the hop faster or slower compared to a regular R-hop patch.

How does a wider patch throw it off center if the bb has miniscule wiggle room? Im also pretty sure it doesnt matter how wide the patch is, because the bb is only going to touch it at its peak.

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Masterjuggler98

· #12 · Mar 27, 2013

I'm really not trying to start a flame war here. By making the patch concave, even slightly thinner than the standard r-hop, will make the contact area on the bb wider (it will contact the bb slightly on the sides too, not just on the very top). If one side has slightly more pressure on the bb than the other, it will throw the backspin off center, as in slightly more right or left spin. If there is only one contact point, dead center of the barrel, it will always get a perfectly straight backspin. Maybe I'm misunderstanding you on the wiggle room thing. What I'm picturing in my head is if the bb moves from side to side, the contact point will move to the side of the bb, making the backspin off center. What I am saying is because there is so little wiggle room, that won't happen, or at least there will be no noticeable difference at any off the ranges possible for a bb to reach. I threw the length info in there because like you said, you haven't mentioned it yet, and you seem to be focused on just centering the backspin, even though if you only have a single contact point at the very top of the bb, it will always be center.

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vindicareassassin

· #13 · Mar 27, 2013

I think I understand what your saying :nuts:

For what you are proposing you would need something that is ^ shaped in profile, it would have to sit perfectly square with NO amount of wiggle, as that would almost certainly throw the shot.

A concave is all very well but to be effective needs to be the exact same internal diameter as the external diameter of your chosen BB, and if that changes by even a few thou it alters the effective pressure on the BB so you might aswell be using a flat nub.

Think of it this way, if you use a contact patch that touches the BB at 2 points, you are doubling the chances of BB flight deviation unless absalutely spot on.

Use a concave patch your thrown into the situation I described above.

Use a flat nub and it doesn't matter where along the width of the nub the BB is loaded, it will always receive the same pressure along its length, its only ever going to be 0.04mm off of centre, and because of the barrel radius it will naturally track to the centre of the barrel anyway as it travels along it

Throw an LRB into the above mix and it all happens alot faster.....

I guess all Im saying is 'its not broken..... Stop trying to fix it' :shrug:

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TheHunter

Discussion Starter · #14 · Mar 28, 2013

This image is from evike,

so how is one contact better than two???

"I guess all Im saying is 'its not broken..... Stop trying to fix it"

It doesnt have to be broken to make it better.

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Masterjuggler98

· #15 · Mar 28, 2013

Alright, unless you can give us something to back up your arguement (other than a picture from a company that tells people to clean barrels with silicone oil), I give up trying to explain this to you. We've already told you exactly why one contact is better than two. Did you even read anything in Vindi's post other than that last line? We are always trying to improve upon things, you should know that by now. We are trying to tell you though that having multiple contact points is a liability, not an asset.

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TheHunter

Discussion Starter · #16 · Mar 28, 2013

It is all over different forums that a concave contacting point is good. Hence the huge use of the H-nub with lots of people praising it! I have read on several forums that that is part of the reason why the r-hop patch is so good, concave and longer contact time(I was trying to maximize the concave part). So I don't know why you are so against this. Especially if you haven't even tried it!

Just because one thing they say might be wrong doesn't mean everything is.

Im not saying this is the best thing ever and will work perfectly, that's why I asked if anybody has tried it.

vindicareassassin

· #17 · Mar 28, 2013

Did you read my 1st post??

It quite clearly states that I have tried something similar to what you are proposing, it sucked, so I moved on :shrug:

In the case that that your picture shows, then yes, 2 points would help, but they are still a liability, as even a H nub can cause uneven flight and can be a real ball ache to set up properly.

I suggest you go back to my Holy Grail thread and look at my nubs I made and see what conclusions where made there :shrug:

I also suggest you go and re read my last post for a full explanation as to why it doesn't work and what does

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Killer

· #18 · Mar 28, 2013

Is it just me, or are all of you talking about different things?

As I understand, hunter has seen (as i have) that the concave patch from HSS, isnt concave when you apply the needed hop up.
The R-hop will flatten out when you put pressure on it, by design.
The only thing that would solve this, is to lower the sides of the R-hop, thus being lower in the barrel, and then sanding a 6mm groove in it. This would result (theoretically) in the most surface area on the contact patch (What i think Hunter means)

Two contact points would theoretically do the same. The rubber is pushed down on the left and right. The area between the point will stretch, in the contour of the bb. This would result in a dynamicaly adjusting "concave" contact area. The downside is that the amount of stretch isnt consistent.

Therefore, i think the best results are with the R-hop set to overhop, and sanding it down to the correct hop. The more you'd have to sand away, the more contact area you would have. (theoretically)

So to make the R-hop the most effective, you wouldnt want adjust your hop up arm, which would change the shape of your contact area, but rather the patch itself.

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sanguinor

· #19 · Mar 28, 2013

Isn't the whole point of the R-hop to be a set hop? So you get it set up perfectly for your bb weight and then you don't need to apply more hop and thus flattening out the r-hop?

Masterjuggler98

· #20 · Mar 28, 2013

Killer said:
Is it just me, or are all of you talking about different things?...

...Two contact points would theoretically do the same. The rubber is pushed down on the left and right. The area between the point will stretch, in the contour of the bb. This would result in a dynamicaly adjusting "concave" contact area. The downside is that the amount of stretch isnt consistent....

Does anyone read the previous posts? It has already been said that even if you somehow manage to get that perfect contour to the bb, if one side is applying even slightly more pressure than the other, it will throw off the hop. You can see this happening when the hop arm in a stock bar10 hop chamber isn't shimmed, and is pressing on one side of the bucking ever so slightly more than the other. It causes in most cases a very noticeable curving.

sanguinor said:
Isn't the whole point of the R-hop to be a set hop? So you get it set up perfectly for your bb weight and then you don't need to apply more hop and thus flattening out the r-hop?

I think you are forgetting about the m-nub, the nub that HS5 made specifically for the r-hop. It is compressible like foam, so when it presses down on the r-hop it contours to it's shape and applies even pressure.

Guys, we all understand the need to improve upon these systems, trust me. I am not trying to completely dismiss this idea. What Vindi and I are saying is it has already been tried, and the results were not promising. You guys know that Vindi tests things very thoroughly, like with how far he went with the j-hop testing. He must have tested that nub shape a lot to try to get it to work the way we want it to.

It has also already been said that if you have a perfectly flat contact patch, it wouldn't even matter if the bb can move from side to side in the barrel, because the contact point will always be on the very top ff the bb, and there is no material to put any pressure on the sides.

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