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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok guys, lets hear what everyone thinks about this one...



As everyone knows, and one has felt ;), I have my CA SPR that I just got. I really love this rifle!! I ended up using it more than my CA M24 today during a game.

I have done a little to the rifle, but nothing major or anything in regards to the gear box. I have stabilized the inner barrel, and am planning on on stabilizing the outer barrel inside of the tube as well. That will be apart of the winter projects that I am going to do.

So this is my question to you guys......

Has anyone got a systema gear box in there rifle, and how does it perform? I am planning on getting this rifle to 500-550 fps, so that would be the gearbox with the M150 spring. I am trying to find if the gears are the high torque, and need to find a motor that will work.

I know there are a few different gear boxes at the moment.
There is the Systema Complete gear box, the Revolution, as well as the Systema Energy.


So here is my question to you guys.......

1. Which one of the above would be the better choice?
2. Which one will last the longest?
3. What type of motor would be needed?
4. Would I be able to use a 7.4 v lipo in them and have no problems?
5. I would obviously use Duttons semi auto only mod to her, so no worries there.

I know the revolution gear box is awesome! I have found it in a few places, but have heard that you need the Systema hop chamber to use it. But the one good thing about it is that it comes with the motor, and a mosfett. Now this is on the high side of range, but I can eat Ra-man noodles for a while to get her bought.



If there are any other gearboxes that you guys can suggest, let me know. I would also like to hear anything you guys can tell me about the Matrix 8mm gearbox. Of course in the same FPS as the systema.


I would like this rifle to be done by spring next year. So I can use the rifle at my large game.


Thanks in advance guys, and I can't wait to see what you guys come up with.
 

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Woogie, I can't offer much information on the Systema gearboxes, but I have a little bit of information on the Matrix 8mm gearbox. I have heard that they are pretty good gearboxes to start with, but you have to work on them a little bit. Many people have said that their trigger contacts have melted within 1000 rounds going through the gearbox. I'm not sure why this is, but I would thing it is due to cheap wiring. The internals seem to be alright in them from what I hear though, except for the wiring.

I hope some of this helps.
 

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Ohh boy, another Systema fan.... ::) Lets just go with this, there are far better parts on the market than systema.

GB: Bravo 8mm Box, I think it comes bushings
Bushings: Either Prommy, or another reputable company as ACM bushings can be iffy, just don't use bearings.
Piston: Prommy Hard, but swiss cheesing should be done to lighten the moving mass.
Cylinder: Pick your flavor, just stay away from Element and 5KU, I like Gaurder and JBU, pick your flavor.
Spring Guide: I like JBU again, your flavor.
Cylinder and Piston Head: Tirador's 3G Duo Set, it's also sorbo so you have extra gearbox protection.
Gears: Go Riot, or go SHS/XYT/JG as the newer ones are very good.
Motor: Get one of the China Motors. They'll equal the Bravo and Systema Magnums/Torques at a fraction of a cost, and will have the correction that the Systema Magnums need.
Spring: I like Gaurder and Prommy.

Electrical:
Switch: The stock one should be fine, just clean off the contacts.
MOSFET: Go with a HS Armouries Fet. They are no-frills pure protection Fet that don't take a bite out of the bill.
Wiring: Go with standard 16 AGW.
Connectors: Go with deans ultra, simple as that.
Lipo protection: PWD Boards are a must, they are highly programmed to give only true results. The other lipo testers aren't truly designed for airsoft use.

Also, you CANNOT lego build this. You have to tune. Take more time with this than you do with all of your rifles combined. The batteries, if you do most of the electrical and drive train right a 14.8v lipo will be no problem. If you have any more questions or where to find these items, let me know I'll help you out.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Yeah... not really a Systema fan....I just know that they have a complete gear set, along with a motor and what not already.

But if there are others on the market that are good and will hold up for a long time, please let me know.

I can't wait Dutton, should be nothing but good stuff.

If the matrix is a decent gearbox, minus the wiring, that is something I can deal with. I have more than enough wire to redo that part of it. That and for the price... you really can't beat that. That and being the first upgraded gearbox I will ever own, that may be the best bet. And slowly upgrade as things go on her.
 

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The problem I have with Matrix, as it is from Evike (they're getting better) and it's ACM. A freind of mine on a different forum had an estimated .3-5mm deviation on the bushing holes which is extremely bad. The list I gave you was with what I could think of and what I would use. I also can't wait for Duttons info. Plus, when you build a gearbox from scratch, you learn about what goes on and could show you the weaknesses of the system.
 

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If it helps my mate owned a systema 'ready made M120' box, utter shite!!

Destroyed itself inside 5 shots at cronoing pre-game.


Then again the following game after being fixed under warrenty. :-/

Then again the following game. ::)

Now he uses a stock TM box with a mish mash of upgrade parts ;)

See if you can find my SPR rebuild in this section and combine it with the guide, choosing the bits you want to add, and you should be fine regardless of box manufacture ;)

One thing I will add though is do everything you can to transfer the piston shock from the piston head into the body in an effort to stave off GB cracks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Yeah I am going to be doing a ton of reading.

I am wanting this thing to be a darn tank of a gear box. As I had more fun using my SPR than I did using the M24 ;) I think reading through all of Vindi's stuff has converted me


I do know that I need to get the torque up gears, as well as a high torque motor. The rest of the stuff I am sure I can find here in the forums.

The thing that is really confusing me is that there is so much info, and so little, about a reinforced gearboxes that I am so lost and confused. I know that the box itself can either make or brake the build, so to get the right one is crucial.

Thanks again guys...

* This is what I am reading now.... http://www.airsoftsniperforum.com/phpBB/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=1107 ***
 

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Making a tank out of a V.2 GB is not impossible but it may cost a lot to do so.

we took a CA M4 and turned it into one hell of an SR25.

The first part was finding a CNC'd GB (our cost $200 at the time)
but prices have dropped...
http://www.ebairsoft.com/hightech-7075-aluminium-reinforced-gearbox-version-p-3488.html

as far as everything else i think you are pretty on track.

And our SR 25 is going on 6 years with little sign of wear on the GB.
 

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Sorry Woogie.. the guy I built it with took it with him when he got transferred to Ft. Brag.. so slim chance of pics.

there is also someone here in the states doing it from billet but its also double the price.
 

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woogie said:
So this is my question to you guys......

Has anyone got a systema gear box in there rifle, and how does it perform? I am planning on getting this rifle to 500-550 fps, so that would be the gearbox with the M150 spring. I am trying to find if the gears are the high torque, and need to find a motor that will work.

I know there are a few different gear boxes at the moment.
There is the Systema Complete gear box, the Revolution, as well as the Systema Energy.

So here is my question to you guys.......

1. Which one of the above would be the better choice?
2. Which one will last the longest?
3. What type of motor would be needed?
4. Would I be able to use a 7.4 v lipo in them and have no problems?
5. I would obviously use Duttons semi auto only mod to her, so no worries there.

I know the revolution gear box is awesome! I have found it in a few places, but have heard that you need the Systema hop chamber to use it. But the one good thing about it is that it comes with the motor, and a mosfett. Now this is on the high side of range, but I can eat Ra-man noodles for a while to get her bought.

If there are any other gearboxes that you guys can suggest, let me know. I would also like to hear anything you guys can tell me about the Matrix 8mm gearbox. Of course in the same FPS as the systema.

I would like this rifle to be done by spring next year. So I can use the rifle at my large game.

Thanks in advance guys, and I can't wait to see what you guys come up with.
Woogie,

Over the years I have had the fortunate opportunity to obtain first hand - hands on - personal experience with a large variety of the many manufacturers of the various airsoft parts designs, and products available to date in the airsoft industry.

I myself do currently own a Systema M150 Revolution gearbox, and have it installed in a custom built JPI SPR semi-auto sniper rifle.
The only issues that I've ever had with the gearbox were during testing it with an M175 spring. The stronger spring broke the last tooth off of the sector gear, and it did it twice within 100 shots each time!
It also twisted the armature shaft completely into on a Systema Max torque motor.
After repairing the gearbox and returning it back to it's original M150 condition, I have had no issues with it since, and it's been running that way for over 1-1/2yrs now and sees regular fielded Milsim use.

In response to your above mentioned questions here are both my honest opinion, as well as some facts regarding your questions:

1. Which one of the above would be the better choice?
My Answer: The Systema Revolution is of a higher quality design over the evolution series.
2. Which one will last the longest?
My Answer: In factory form I would anticipate that the Revolution would under restricted semi-auto use.
3. What type of motor would be needed?
My Answer: I would recommend either a Systema Max Torque, or Matrix 3000 motor foe use with an M150.
4. Would I be able to use a 7.4 v lipo in them and have no problems?
My Answer: In order to provide efficient power delivery to the motor I would strongly recommend nothing less than 11.1v power to drive an M150 gearbox.
5. I would obviously use Duttons semi auto only mod to her, so no worries there.
My Answer:

The pros & cons I find with with the Systema gearboxes are as follows:
Pros:
- Helical gears, provide a much quieter operation, and are higher in efficiency when transferring the delivered ratio, over the traditional flat geared teeth designs.
- A higher quality re-enforced gearbox shell.
Cons:
- Must use Systema Hop-up system
- Cost is considerably over inflated

I would also like to hear anything you guys can tell me about the Matrix 8mm gearbox.
My Answer:
I have worked on no less than a dozen of the Matrix 8mm gearboxes, and here are my findings & thoughts:
- Every Matrix gearbox that I have repaired including the M130, M140, & M150 series all have suffered from a cracked stock polymer piston head within a very short amount of time!
Two of the Matrix M150 gearboxes resulted in broken gearbox housings in less than a month (both of which had been previously upgraded with aluminum piston heads)
- Most have had the casting on the left hand side gearbox housing that holds the anti-reversal latch in place, broken off after several months of regular use.

All of the above mentioned Matrix M130+ gearboxes were full-auto select fire enabled.
*I don't recommend anything over a Non-Linear M120 spring in a full auto set-up. As an M130 or stronger spring will increase rapid parts wear, or break the internals on many gearboxes in a fairly short amount of time when used in conjunction with Fully Automatic Fire.

In my honest opinion, I hate to see anyone overspend on over hyped or over priced upgrades that one will never see an equal return their fun-per-$ investment.
With your experience and caliber of play, I feel that the Matrix M150 setup could possibly provide you with a much lower costing solution with adherence to the following upgrades & mods:
- Upgrade to an aluminum piston head
- Apply quality lubrication to the gears and all metal contact surfaces.
- As Vendi has mentioned above, to perform the necessary vibration dampening mod work between the cylinder and gearbox housing.
- Locked restriction to semi-auto only fire.
- Matrix 3000 Max Torque Motor
-11.v Lipo battery power

Good luck with your build whichever way you decide to go!

Happy hunting,

The BushMan
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thanks for the great write up man.

Yeah the rifle would be used quite a bit, and will probably become my primary over time. So if I need to spend a little more in the rifle right away, the long term cost will be alot cheaper.

Again thanks for the write up and can't wait to see what others have to say.

*EDIT*

Well like the post above says.... But if something happens where we don't need to replace it, then all funds will go toward this rifle. I will get this thing shooting like a beast by next summer!!

**EDIT AGAIN **

OK been looking at what metallic has posted, and started to think about the self built gearboxes. Is there one that would work, and would stand up to just semi auto just fine? I know with the self builds you can choose what parts you want in them and you can make sure of the quality. But if you had to choose a pre-made box, which would be acceptable to use?

Just trying to narrow down the field a little bit, and wasting time during my lunch at work
 

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Alright, here's what I've got to offer you.

I've had a Systema M150 gearbox in one of my primary's for probably 5 years now (with a Guarder SP120) spring in it.

It comes with helical super torque of gears, which are awesome. Even after 5 years, they STILL show no signs of wear. However, the gearbox also have faults. The first fault is the Systema piston. They are utter garbage. Replace is right away, as I've had one strip out in less that 100 shots. It's a full tooth piston, you'll want to replace it with a half tooth piston - I recommend a Madbull piston. I've had nothing but good luck with them, and it's what I've had in mine since it stripped out. The other problem is the mosfets drain your battery if it's plugged in, even without you shooting. Just be aware not to leave a battery plugged in during prolonged times of non-use (a day of airsoft is going to be a problem though). Next, Systema springs suck. They're inconsistent and are prone to breaking. Throw a Guarder SP140-150 in there and you'll be happy. Lastly, I don't have any pictures, but they are known to have a weak 'peg' in the gearbox, which holds the electrical contact in place. I've had one break, but not from this particular gearbox.

Next, I've also had an M170 mechbox, which I again put a smaller spring in. Not so great. They come with different pistons - theyre Area 1000, which are made by Systema, but are equally as crappy. They also don't come with a bearing spring guide, which is definitely the optimal choice for high velocity setups. Other than that, same problems as with the M150 boxes.

The Revolution I've had no personal experience with. I hear they're great - but not in a high velocity setup that a DMR dictates. They're made more for the M110 range, and anything beyond that you're prone to problems.

The Energy Series, I've also had no experience with and really haven't hear much about.

(As a sidenote, if you're sticking to semi-auto only, get an 11.1v 20C lipo. Not over kill, quicker trigger response, and overall better than a 7.4v or any NiCd or NiMH on the market.)

If you're looking to piece together a gearbox, which is fun and you learn a lot - though I advise against it unless you have fairly extensive experience with an AEG. Most of my gearboxes have been pieced together by myself, but it really can be a very frustrating, especially with limited experience.

Anyways, if you opt for that route, Guarder are quality internals, for a very good value. However, you need to be careful what gearbox you use because they cylinder heads have abnormally small positioning holes in them. Prometheus is also extremely good quality, though on the more expensive side. Their pistons as someone else noted are extremely nice, but if you don't have perfect alignment and shimming, you're gonna strip it right away, and they're fairly expensive in terms of pistons. Prometheus springs are also junk as well. Systema is also a great choice too, just again be aware of their junk spring and pistons.

That's about all I can think of as of now, but if I think of more, I'll add to it. Or, if you have more specific questions, let me know.

*EDIT*
Ahh, motors. Forgot about those. Guarder, G&P (I think they're M140 Motors is what they're called), Hummer, or Systema Magnum would all be great choices. All of them are high torque. With the Systema, if you don't have proper alignment, you're going to strip out the pinion gear - they're designed for that to avoid stripping the pinion gear, but be aware. Also, they Magnum can eat through brushes too. If you do get the magnum and strip out the pinion, replace it with the 'hardened' version made for it.

My personal favorite motor out there is a Systema Torque Up, but they haven't been made since the Magnum/Turbo series came out, so best of luck finding one.
 

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In my last DMR, I ran a Matrix M160 gearbox from Evike. I used a G&P M160 motor as well as an 11.1V lipo, and I was thoroughly impressed with the durability. It chrono'd at 503 FPS with .2s (last checked in the spring, before I sold it) and I used it almost every weekend with .3s and had fantastic results. There were no signs of immense wear and nothing has broken in the half year or so I used it (probably 10K rounds) without falter. I would HIGHLY recommend this gearbox if you plan on using any version 2 gearbox rifle or setup, but then again, I have not used the new Systema complete gearboxes. Hope this was insightful!

-JB
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Thanks for the AWESOME write up Dutton!!!!

I am not to sure if I am wanting to buy the gearbox, or get the parts and make put her together together.

I am really leaning toward putting it together myself. That and like stated before, would be fun to do it and I would learn a ton when doing it this way.

It is sounding like I should start with the gearbox shell, get a high torque motor, and then look at the rest of the internals.

One question that I did have...... what is the difference between a full tooth piston and a half tooth piston? And what kind of difference does it make in all honesty.

I am slowly doing some small things on the rifle while I wait for some funds. I found an older suppressor that I fit to the rifle, it now the float tube is supported by the suppressor and attached to the barrel
 

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A full tooth piston is designed for a 'flat' gearset.


A half tooth piston is designed for a helical gearset.


The gearset in the M150/M170 Complete boxes are one of the oddballs that can use either, but function better with the half tooth piston, despite coming with a full tooth.

Both gearsets also have their pros and cons

Helical:
Pros
Quieter, Smoother Operating, Last Longer because they distribute stress more evenly throughout the gear

Cons
Zero room for error in shimming, if they're not shimmed 100% correct you're either losing your piston, sector gear, all your gears, and a combination of the above

Flat Gears:
Pros
More room for error, easier to shim

Cons:
Louder, 'Sloppier' after shimming, usually wear down sooner

Also, I would recommend going with a Madbull Hop Up, they're awesome compared to 'standard' hop ups.
 
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