[woogie]

Well a few days ago, we had a fairly long thread going about the ins and the outs of silencers when it comes to airsoft side of things. I have done some digging, and am going to post it up here as it pertains to the US group of people.

I really don't want people to chime in and say " well I heard from, or I read... blah blah blah" This is coming from the horses mouth at the ATF. I currently have an email asking the head people out in Washington ( again mind you ) just to make sure we know what is going on and what is to be expected.

http://searchjustice.usdoj.gov/search?q=silencer+%28+faq+%29&site=default_collection&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&client=atf&proxystylesheet=atf

Link right to the ATF page.....

ATF Home Firearms Frequently Asked Questions National Firearms Act (NFA)

 

[MiloXC3]

Sticky this?

 

[woogie]

Thanks for the sticky Dutton..... I think this is my first.

 

[mateba]

Still didn't answer the "readily be convertible" question. At what point do they say a lathe is a NFA item due to constructive intent? You can't just put a can on a gun, it needs the right threads to even be attached. I am not talking about the QD can that function around replica flash hiders and would attach to real flash hiders. I am talking about changing the threads of airsoft can. Common rifle threads are 14x1mm left, 18x1mm, 1/2-28, 5/8-24 for calibers between .22 to .338. Most airsoft cans are 14x1mm + or - which I can see the issue with 14x1mm lefty rifle threads. But if the toy can is altered to 15x1mm for example it would require the barrel of real gun to be re threaded. Heck lets say 16x1mm and you know what they say about removing material. Here is the thing, some those "barrel shrouds" would not pass. It only needs to work once and change the report by 1db. So the whole thing about whether it has foam or not is redundant.

I don't know much about smithing but apparently there is + and - threads for both left right handed threads. CW airsoft cans maybe the better choice since they won't fit already.

 

[quigly]

Suppressors, not silencers. Just sayin'.

 

[woogie]

They don't need threads. There are friction fit suppressors out there that are only many to be used a dozen or so times and then tossed.

So in that way the thread size and pitch don't mean squat.

 

[mateba]

Ok, so if I have a toy can I can't own it anymore if it fits on some gun anywhere in the world? When does "readily be converted" become defined here? You still need a firearm. I don't own anything that I can mount my toy can too either by friction, threaded muzzle or QD mount, but since my neighbor does, I'm the bad guy? Forget logic, we are talking about the ATF, where is the sense in all of this? When did I become liable for someone else's consumer decisions? Seriously, do they just want my toy can to sell to the Mexican drug cartels? What, too early?

Why are these not considered to be low quality mock suppressors in comparison to real mock suppressors for real firearms? The type of products linked below is okay but if its re-branded by Echo1 it is not? http://usmachinegun.com/products.php?cat=33 There has got to be something we are missing here.

 

[lainthecity]

"Silencers and any part designed and intended for fabricating a silencer;"
" What is the tax on making an NFA firearm?
The tax is $200 for making any NFA firearm, including

 

[woogie]

That is just it though Mateba..... there really is no logic to it.

Those are FAKE cans.... in other words they are solid chunks of metal. And there for not a suppressor. But the second that you bore them out and put any kind of material inside of them it is a suppressor, and you are in trouble.

There is nothing illegal with FAKE suppressors..... as they are solid tubes and do not muffle the sound.

 

[mateba]

What about the "readily be converted"? How am I in-part responsible for someone else's property?

Got it Woogie, so as long as I don't have foam in it its ok? You realize thats not what makes a the bigger difference in the db, right? The can itself would be a single baffle and the foam would not change much.

@lainthecity, the taxes change. $200 is the run of the mill tax. Short Barrel Shotguns are $5, SBRs and cans are $200 , not sure about the full-autos (technically a class II item but you have to get it from a Class III dealer just liek all the others so there is confusion there, I think) and the others are more. All of them are cumulative meaning that a suppressed SBR would need two $200 stamps and a decade for the paper work. The suppressor is its own item and is not tied to a particular weapon. SOT stamps are a $500 annual tax stamp for suppressor manufacturers. This also allows you go back and make changes and repairs without another $200 stamp. There are two main ways to purchase a NFA item, as a private citizen or via a trust.

 

[swordfish1227]

If you made the suppressor have the male threads and the gun have female threads would it be legal?

 

[woogie]

Anything that has end caps on it and is hollow... that would be ( at least in my eyes "readily available" ) But again this is up for interpretation, and if it were to ever go to court..... you are going to loose against the ATF.

Sword........ it is easy as this. If you make a suppressor of any kind that is able to muffle the sound of any real steal rifle.... then it is illegal. It doesn't matter how it is attached to the rifle, just that it can be. And it doesn't matter how it is done, just that it can be done.... and it can always be done.


What is being talked about now, is what I would call a "grey area" Because there are ways around the wording, but it is different to everyone. And the only person who can say yes or no.... is the ATF, and no body else. So if you have any doubt in your mind that it would be illegal..... it would be best not to do it.

 

[mateba]

If it is permanently attached to the airsoft replica it is legal. Most consider "permanently attached" means welded. If it is apart of the replica in such a way that it can not function without it, it is also legal. Meaning integrated airsoft silenced barrels are okay too.

Woogie, don't take this the wrong way but "at least in my eyes" is a little iffy to say the least.

 

[the3rdeye88]

Would Locktight make it legal?

 

[woogie]

The suppressor has to be welded and pinned to the barrel, and not be able to be taken apart. This is how Gamo slid by the laws with their air rifle. And an integral is still considered a suppressor, and as such it still needs to have the tax stamp and all of the ATF paper work filled out.

In my eyes that is how I interpret the law... but I am not going to try my luck and push it. Because again it will come up to the ATF and me.... and guess who has the better lawyers.

 

[mateba]

Got it Woogie, no one here is talking about breaking the law we are discussing the law itself. We can't rely on our own interpretations of the law. We normally come to logical reasoning when we find it necessary to restrict someone or something. They do not, they have a much large group of people to deal with as well. So what makes sense to us may or may not be correct.

Personally, I don't see how I can be held responsible for a toy can if it fits on someone else's firearm. I consider myself sufficient in preventing it from being "readily be convertible". Now if I was a felon (malicious character) or owned a firearm that could fit it (constructive intent), ok. Weak... but... I don't appreciate their assumption they are taking about me, hypothetically. They are assuming I have ill intent just by, and if, I own one.

Do you think any landowner would have issue if someone brought a real suppressor on their land on a replica, because its technically considered a firearm?

 

[woogie]

Not as long as it is legal.

But yeah I hear what you are saying as well. It is one of those stupid things, but it only took a few people to screw it up for the rest of us.


When it comes to the suppressor side of things, yes they still think that if you own them you are going to out and conduct in "illegal" activities. And the public is still in the mind that the only people that need suppressors are criminals as well as murderers. But this just isn't the case, as there are more people killed by house hold items than there are buy people who use illegal/let alone legal suppressors.

But it seems that the laws have come out of ill informed people.


But yeah I agree with you though. Just because you are going to use them only on an airsoft gun, you shouldn't be singled out. But there are those out there that will try to use them on a real rifle.

 

[king..kranium]

Awhile back I thought of asking for help on this... Then thought I would be a greedy man and keep all the glory(isn't that what its really about). Well I'm asking if anyone has heard of an oscilloscope. I believe with an oscilloscope we can learn the frequency of the sound a gun makes when fired. And then using small speakers emit a "opposite " frequency to "silence " the airsoft gun. Backed by Newtons first law an equal yet opposite reaction should stop the sound frequency from traveling. But I have no hope of getting near an oscilloscope as I live in the country...

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[Masterjuggler98]

You couldn't have had better timing to ask that question. I was just browsing instructables and found this just a few minutes ago: www.instructables.com/id/How-To-Make-A-CRT-TV-Into-an-Oscilloscope/ I am not completely sure if this is what we need because it doesn't tell us exactly what frequency it is, only shows us what it looks like, if that makes sense. I am sure we can find a better DIY but this just seems like the fastest way. Anyway, the way I see it, there are several frequencies being emitted from the guns, like sound coming out of the barrel, the trigger, the magwell, etc. You would need to find every single one and that might be too much work. One more thing; this thread was really meant to talk about silencers, not silencing your gun. You should have made a thread in the concealment section probably.

 

[king..kranium]

Okay a variable huh, I'm good lol. The most noise is going to come from around the piston head followed by the barrel(I believe) So if we could silence these two it would be drastically better and almost true silence...
Also what is to say this invention is not a silencer? Its just a radical idea of a silencer.
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