Hello I've been playing air soft for a few years and owned several aegs and spring rifles. Right now i just have a stock Bar-10 and i am doing pretty well with it given the circumstances. I normally do skirmish with some friends and other people i know since the nearest field is several hours away. It is normally medium to long distance against aegs and nice hpa setups. I suck at teching and im wondering if should just upgrade my basr or go the dmr route with a cyma svd.
Spring or Electric.
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Alas I suffer a similar conundrum. I have put considerable work into my L96 and use it...never. Really. See signature pic below...that's my EBR (also nowhere near stock). Pretty much an electric sniper rifle..*GASP*...I mean DMR, I mean, aeg...hahahaha...whatever. Shoots crazy far, it's quiet, and I have a full auto option for those days...you know, those days.
That said, I did play quite a bit with the L96 before this last revision of mods (ver. 6.0). Great gun, super reliable, no batteries, less junk to carry...all those good things. But, then the EBR...what a hammer!
So, there you go, I'm no help at all. hehehehe. Ok, seriously, there's much to be said for the SVD....and 'electric sniping' (man, I'm going to get roasted for saying that). I played one game with one hi cap. That's it. Never even switched out the mag. Never switched out the battery either. Figure in a game as a sniper you may fire 100 shots...maybe. Well, the mag on the EBR holds 140. bawwhaahaa...good for the day.
Sure, the EBR is HEAVY. But only about a pound heavier than my L96 really. Sure, it's not as far reaching as the L96, but the extra coverage is sure nice. It certainly does shoot further than most AEG's and the ability to get a few fast shots off in a row is a cut above the bolt gun.
But then there's the magic of the bolt. It's like adding an extra foot to your arm so you can reach the chip bowl without getting off the couch. That kind of magical, y'know? The BB just soars out of there...until you can't even see it anymore...then 'hit'! Oh wow...how's that even possible? You may call me Merlin.
So, in the end, it would depend on the game. Are you in for the big sneak with lots of time to set up your shots, or are you going to get heated with the odd tight squeeze requiring even more heat...I say build em both.
That said, I did play quite a bit with the L96 before this last revision of mods (ver. 6.0). Great gun, super reliable, no batteries, less junk to carry...all those good things. But, then the EBR...what a hammer!
So, there you go, I'm no help at all. hehehehe. Ok, seriously, there's much to be said for the SVD....and 'electric sniping' (man, I'm going to get roasted for saying that). I played one game with one hi cap. That's it. Never even switched out the mag. Never switched out the battery either. Figure in a game as a sniper you may fire 100 shots...maybe. Well, the mag on the EBR holds 140. bawwhaahaa...good for the day.
Sure, the EBR is HEAVY. But only about a pound heavier than my L96 really. Sure, it's not as far reaching as the L96, but the extra coverage is sure nice. It certainly does shoot further than most AEG's and the ability to get a few fast shots off in a row is a cut above the bolt gun.
But then there's the magic of the bolt. It's like adding an extra foot to your arm so you can reach the chip bowl without getting off the couch. That kind of magical, y'know? The BB just soars out of there...until you can't even see it anymore...then 'hit'! Oh wow...how's that even possible? You may call me Merlin.
So, in the end, it would depend on the game. Are you in for the big sneak with lots of time to set up your shots, or are you going to get heated with the odd tight squeeze requiring even more heat...I say build em both.
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Is there any other mood to be in?:lmao:
Ok, all fooling aside, Leetworld, not quite. BOTH forms require all of which you describe. In fact, building my bolt gun was substantially cheaper than the EBR. In fact, in most playing scenarios, either works equally well with no substantial difference.
Besides, tuning an AEG is no easy feat either. Everyone regards these bolt guns like some mystical version of Excalibur, but get an AEG firing well over 200 ft on full auto and still hitting a pie plate, well, there's your time, patience, and accuracy as well. There is a PILE of precision work in making a long range AEG that still deserves a serious nod. Kudos to both bolt and AEG.
Alot of people in the elitest sniper corps regard the humble aeg as the hatchet of airsoft...but they forget one thing. It's all about launching the ammo. Bolt or motor, they both do the exact same thing. The only reason bolts tend to shoot further is the extra limits they're given on the field. If an AEG is properly built, it's a crazy force to be reckoned with...luckily, very few people take them that far. I have an M1918 Browning that snipers really do not like or appreciate. It's possible, it just takes more time, etc,etc...
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^ Honestly this isn't said enough- probably because we as snipers like to ignore this reality :hehe:
I know I'll always love BASRs - something about the pressure of precision being a bigger necessity, with successive shots more difficult and slower to put out than with automatic guns - but strictly speaking, in almost every single way, an airsoft gun that can load automatically has greater potential than one that can't.
I see people thinking they're silly for kitting up a sidearm with the works - scope included - while people laugh like it's satire. Many people don't realize: It doesn't have to be. Barrel length isn't as important as people think it is- and 'long enough' is again shorter than most people think! And it doesn't end here...
List out 5 things you want from a gun, and that gun can almost always take the form of an auto-loader like an AEG or GBB. The BASR platform offers virtually nothing over standard rifles.
Some of the only objective benefits a BASR has over autos is the cost of upgrading, and loudness. The quietest system possible is a non-blowback gas gun (technically doesn't count; auto-loaders exist here!), and simpler/cheaper platforms will be easier to upgrade to the ceiling. That cost one is funny because a lot of people talk as if being a sniper is more expensive than using an AEG; well sure getting a BASR to compete with anything full-auto is going to cost you, but in reality, if your goal is to fully upgrade either platform up to god-tier, the AEG is going to cost an immense amount more!
...Man I'm really making myself giddy about potentially getting into AEG teching as my next project >
I know I'll always love BASRs - something about the pressure of precision being a bigger necessity, with successive shots more difficult and slower to put out than with automatic guns - but strictly speaking, in almost every single way, an airsoft gun that can load automatically has greater potential than one that can't.
I see people thinking they're silly for kitting up a sidearm with the works - scope included - while people laugh like it's satire. Many people don't realize: It doesn't have to be. Barrel length isn't as important as people think it is- and 'long enough' is again shorter than most people think! And it doesn't end here...
List out 5 things you want from a gun, and that gun can almost always take the form of an auto-loader like an AEG or GBB. The BASR platform offers virtually nothing over standard rifles.
Some of the only objective benefits a BASR has over autos is the cost of upgrading, and loudness. The quietest system possible is a non-blowback gas gun (technically doesn't count; auto-loaders exist here!), and simpler/cheaper platforms will be easier to upgrade to the ceiling. That cost one is funny because a lot of people talk as if being a sniper is more expensive than using an AEG; well sure getting a BASR to compete with anything full-auto is going to cost you, but in reality, if your goal is to fully upgrade either platform up to god-tier, the AEG is going to cost an immense amount more!
...Man I'm really making myself giddy about potentially getting into AEG teching as my next project >
I love Basr and i can be really patient and i had to be a while ago because i had a crappy one that only shot like 30-50 feet accurately and i managed to get kills with it. I have the patients to use a basr and a lot of the time the people don't even know i'm there util like the 4th shot. Which i have to take a lot of shots sometimes due to a long range with a stock gun. Another factor is brush and a electric sniper's ability to do followup shots so it has a better chance of punching through the brush. Right now i'm just debating between upgrading my BAr-10 or getting a Cyma svd and trying to upgrade it eventually to shoot pretty far. Also if i have a dmr could i still fill the sniper's role in mil sim events?
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Depends on the milsim. If its in the US, then pretty much if its an AEG, you get put as a DM role, period. Only bolt actions can fall in the "sniper" role.
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I hadn't thought about it too much, but you're right. AEG's can be more expensive than BASR's if you want the very best. A super high end AEG build:^ Honestly this isn't said enough- probably because we as snipers like to ignore this reality :hehe:
I know I'll always love BASRs - something about the pressure of precision being a bigger necessity, with successive shots more difficult and slower to put out than with automatic guns - but strictly speaking, in almost every single way, an airsoft gun that can load automatically has greater potential than one that can't.
I see people thinking they're silly for kitting up a sidearm with the works - scope included - while people laugh like it's satire. Many people don't realize: It doesn't have to be. Barrel length isn't as important as people think it is- and 'long enough' is again shorter than most people think! And it doesn't end here...
List out 5 things you want from a gun, and that gun can almost always take the form of an auto-loader like an AEG or GBB. The BASR platform offers virtually nothing over standard rifles.
Some of the only objective benefits a BASR has over autos is the cost of upgrading, and loudness. The quietest system possible is a non-blowback gas gun (technically doesn't count; auto-loaders exist here!), and simpler/cheaper platforms will be easier to upgrade to the ceiling. That cost one is funny because a lot of people talk as if being a sniper is more expensive than using an AEG; well sure getting a BASR to compete with anything full-auto is going to cost you, but in reality, if your goal is to fully upgrade either platform up to god-tier, the AEG is going to cost an immense amount more!
...Man I'm really making myself giddy about potentially getting into AEG teching as my next project >
G&P SAI GRY for the base $420
Gearbox, motor and electrical:
Action Army R-30k motor, rewound to 20tpa $75
Retro Arms CNC QSC gearbox $105
FLT 8mm bushings $20
SHS ARL $3
Guarder SP110 spring $11
Siegetek 10.44:1 SSG gears $135
Prometheus shims $6
SHS blue, Cyma FMR, Prommy Hard or SuperCore piston AoE corrected $9-33
Lonex POM piston head $15
Lonex 4/5 ported steel cylinder $15
Lonex cylinder head $12
Airpad(not 100% sure if it would fit Lonex CH well) ~$5
Prometheus POM tappet plate $18
Lonex POM nozzle $5.50
Gate Titan $150(?)
Retro Arms CNC flat trigger $10
Barrel and hop:
Prometheus Neo hopup chamber $38
Prometheus purple hopup packing $11
Some flat nub
R-hop'd, lapped ZCi 363mm barrel ~$90
That's at least $1153.50, not including externals and such. That would be ~35 RPS(adjustable), ~1.5j, with near instant trigger response and excellent effective range, assuming it's tuned well. Granted not all of those parts are needed. I have seen some very expensive BASR's though so actually I'm not sure which would cost more...
You should build an AEG!
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Whoa �� everyone got carried away a bit. What I meant was with bolt action you obviously are going to upgrade it because due to low rate of fire you want your single shot to be precise and far away to even out the odds or give you an advantage. With aeg you only need to shoot 5m further than the other guy so you don’t need to upgrade it fully. In essence you are going to upgrade bolt fully, aeg not so much, therefore it’s cheaper. My two cents
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If you are looking at an SVD, I would get the Echo1 CSR over the CYMA. Its the same gun with nicer externals and internals. Upgrades for the the SVD are limited due to those 2 being clones of the Real Sword using the t3 gearbox.
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Again, I must disagree, good sir. I want my aeg to roast the sniper that's taking pot shots at me from across the green. Nothing kills the psychology of a sniper like being hit with AEG fire from a distance equal to or slightly further than his range...and he can see you smiling as his BB falls short. He knows he's cooked...and that, is a wonderful feeling. :tup: I used to do it with an AK and that was devastating! hahahaha... That rifle would rattle like a bag of hammers and sniper man thought he was good...NOPE. :ashamed:
So, instead of being slightly ahead of the AEG's, be a big gun. Go after the snipers with your AEG. It'll completely change the dynamic of the game when they realize they are most certainly in range...repeatedly. One dude scoffed at the fact I had a scope on that AK. Nobody else who'd seen that rifle before was laughing. Shortly after, he didn't find it funny either!
See, the thing everyone forgets is that the ammo is all the same. As long as I can deliver the air, tune the hop, and control the flight path of that BB, you might as well set your bolt gun on fire. hahahaha. Control the inefficiencies of the system and you got er made.
Don't get me wrong here, I still love my bolt gun..there sure is a coolness factor, but when it's time to silence a cocky douchebag, it's EBR time.:yup:
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You write novels at daytime by any chance? I see your point. But you’re so advanced at sniping, you’re sniping snipers with rifles. Up where I’m from, usually there’s 2 guys with snipers per 100 players, and in truth only 1 actual sniper per 200, soo, it’s kind of different story.
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No, I'm not a novelist, I'm a mechanic. Ok, a mechanic with one hell of an education. hahaha...
So, instead of laying back, why not up the game? Turn up the heat! Make some bacon...
When I first started airsoft there were only a few snipers as well. The first year I played I did little but observe. Oh sure, the occasional melee to test the mettle of my opponents, but mostly I took notes. Who's gun shot what. Reliability of that gun. Ranges, terrains, everything...you don't build a gun and go play airsoft...no sir! Play airsoft, then go build a gun!! Study the land, the movement, the habits. I may have wasted a year in the eyes of some, and a few thought I was an idiot for throwing myself in front of the ordnance but I was really checking out what kind of jam those guns had.
Advance a year...the winters are long here and I had a full six months to work on things. Try a few experiments as it were. Some worked, some didn't (more ordnance testing). One more winter passes..and voila! The RK-104 AK of DOOM. It's noisy, harsh, and shoots really, really far. The noise was so signature that it was much like stepping on a rattlesnake. Hear the rattle, you're in trouble. But they got wise and one entire game they just stayed away from that corner of the field. The entire club was thrilled when I showed up the next spring and the AK was sold. Except now we had a new problem...the new replacement rifle sounded just like everyone else's! Oh the madness!!! I built a GK5C! Sure, neat gun, but absolutely no different in the exhaust note. Again, club not happy.. hahahahaha...especially the snipers. So, last fall I sold the GK5C (my kid bought it from me)....and built my EBR.
Now we hear nothing. The EBR has some sound deadening to it. It makes no noise..not much more than a sniper rifle and in fact, from 100 feet away, it sounds just like a bolt gun...until the follow up shots come., bawwwhaaahaaaa!!!! Yeah it sounds that way on purpose.
See, the point is, the game isn't won with the rifles, or the gear, or, or, or...no sir, it's won in the head. I recently made a training bayonet for the EBR (see sig pic). EBR's don't have bayonets. That's silly! Look at it! Silly!...but wait. I show up to the game with an EBR like that. There's a scope, a laser, a bayonet, and I only have one rifle. My camo is Realtree to blend in ridiculously well with my surroundings and although I'm a big dude pushing 50, yet in 30 seconds I've vanished into the trees. You heard a few test shots at the range beforehand and you know it makes no noise and shoots far.
Occasionally I'll rattle a few off just over the opponent's head to let them know we're watching....then nothing. Then a few more over their head from a different heading. Rattle a few off the tree six inches from them. Let them know it isn't random. That's worse than a kill shot! hahahaha...It rattles the mind.
So, instead of laying back, why not up the game? Turn up the heat! Make some bacon...
When I first started airsoft there were only a few snipers as well. The first year I played I did little but observe. Oh sure, the occasional melee to test the mettle of my opponents, but mostly I took notes. Who's gun shot what. Reliability of that gun. Ranges, terrains, everything...you don't build a gun and go play airsoft...no sir! Play airsoft, then go build a gun!! Study the land, the movement, the habits. I may have wasted a year in the eyes of some, and a few thought I was an idiot for throwing myself in front of the ordnance but I was really checking out what kind of jam those guns had.
Advance a year...the winters are long here and I had a full six months to work on things. Try a few experiments as it were. Some worked, some didn't (more ordnance testing). One more winter passes..and voila! The RK-104 AK of DOOM. It's noisy, harsh, and shoots really, really far. The noise was so signature that it was much like stepping on a rattlesnake. Hear the rattle, you're in trouble. But they got wise and one entire game they just stayed away from that corner of the field. The entire club was thrilled when I showed up the next spring and the AK was sold. Except now we had a new problem...the new replacement rifle sounded just like everyone else's! Oh the madness!!! I built a GK5C! Sure, neat gun, but absolutely no different in the exhaust note. Again, club not happy.. hahahahaha...especially the snipers. So, last fall I sold the GK5C (my kid bought it from me)....and built my EBR.
Now we hear nothing. The EBR has some sound deadening to it. It makes no noise..not much more than a sniper rifle and in fact, from 100 feet away, it sounds just like a bolt gun...until the follow up shots come., bawwwhaaahaaaa!!!! Yeah it sounds that way on purpose.
See, the point is, the game isn't won with the rifles, or the gear, or, or, or...no sir, it's won in the head. I recently made a training bayonet for the EBR (see sig pic). EBR's don't have bayonets. That's silly! Look at it! Silly!...but wait. I show up to the game with an EBR like that. There's a scope, a laser, a bayonet, and I only have one rifle. My camo is Realtree to blend in ridiculously well with my surroundings and although I'm a big dude pushing 50, yet in 30 seconds I've vanished into the trees. You heard a few test shots at the range beforehand and you know it makes no noise and shoots far.
Occasionally I'll rattle a few off just over the opponent's head to let them know we're watching....then nothing. Then a few more over their head from a different heading. Rattle a few off the tree six inches from them. Let them know it isn't random. That's worse than a kill shot! hahahaha...It rattles the mind.
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That's too fancy of a term for me....I just call it being a good hunter. :shot:
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Moving through 'good hunter' towards 'sadistic'- which 'Machiavellian' happens to aptly describe >
Sure was fun to read :lmao:
I never gave OP my straight opinion:
I started with an AEG but realized I loved the 'hunter' mindset- gaining satisfaction not primarily through taking objectives as a team, but tracking people, being unseen, using precision...well, a lot of us would be happy to write poetry or books about what we derive from the role we choose to play and how it differs from the average fielder; the point is we have a reason to pick up a bolt-action when it's almost always an inherently inferior platform.
You seem like you get that, considering you started with a garbage BASR and didn't immediately give up on it. If that's the case - and you already own a BASR, AND you sound like you'd use an auto-loader similar to how you're already using a BASR - I'd definitely recommend staying the current course, at least upgrading your rifle to a basic top-tier build. You will certainly save money this way (or, delay spending it? Lol); many [if not a large majority of] people don't even upgrade their weapons, and statistically, you probably won't run into many edge-cases like Mr. 'S&M' Zero over here who actually illustrate the performance ceiling height difference between auto-loaders and bolt-actions. Simply put: It's not going to take all that much for the BASR you already own to outperform most people's weapons with regards to accuracy / effective range. If you do go with an AEG, I feel like it would make more sense to go with something standard or CQC-oriented...but I mean, just keep compiling info and follow your heart :shrug: :tup:
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Like all tools, each have their use. Use the right tool for the right job and always have both on hand
Like Plazma said, in the U.S. BASR at milsim events have a huge power advantage over DMRs. Semi auto sniper rifles are not allowed. For example, At TCA events and LionClaws, a BASR is allowed to shoot to what is equivilent to over 600fps (3.6 joule) while the next power level is the DMR at 450fps and ALL rifles are required to be Semi Auto only. So the only thing that really scares me is the guy with the SAW and a 2000 round box mag... Which means I shoot him first lol
Those power levels create a HUGE range difference. If the AO has huge open areas, the quiet , long range precise fire from a BASR can be devestating
On the other hand, when stuck in semi urban enviroments the DMR is a more practical choice and I do use it often
things to consider
1. Are you playing a lot of milsim events?
2. What are the ROE and FPS limits at the events you play at or fields
3. What type of AO do you spend most of your time at?
Now when in doubt , take both, have both and make use of both. Before each game ask youself this
1. What is my mission for this round or evolution
2. What is the enviroment at that AO (ranges, cover, noise, sight lines etc)
3. What are the weather conditons
4. What kind of support do I have (do you have a spotter, a support squad , simulated airstrikes or indirect fire missions
5. What do you have as a backup weapon in case it hits the fan?
Like I said, it's all about the right tool and its best to always have both. One thing a BASR will always have over an AEG is reliability, so even if you don't use it at an op, have it with you as a back up that will not strip gears, run out of gas or batteries, and will go bang every time you pull the trigger
ME, at large ops, I carry my VSR, a very modified pistol and a dissaembled Honey Badger in my back pack in case I get seperated from my support system and have to fight my way home
And no, i'm not anti AEG at all. Look at my profile pic, thats a 450 fps M14 and it will reach out and touch you. That day my mission was to support an assaulting squad against 4 real life SpecOps guys. I was going to need to get down and dirty and those guys like to use overwhelming suppression by fire from cover. I needed long range , precise , high volume fire to suppress the enemy so my squad could advance on the target.
Later that day, I was given a deep infiltration mission to smoke enemy command and control before a second assault on a different target. My BASR was the perfect tool.
Have all the tools. Never use a screwdriver as a hammer or vice versa
Like Plazma said, in the U.S. BASR at milsim events have a huge power advantage over DMRs. Semi auto sniper rifles are not allowed. For example, At TCA events and LionClaws, a BASR is allowed to shoot to what is equivilent to over 600fps (3.6 joule) while the next power level is the DMR at 450fps and ALL rifles are required to be Semi Auto only. So the only thing that really scares me is the guy with the SAW and a 2000 round box mag... Which means I shoot him first lol
Those power levels create a HUGE range difference. If the AO has huge open areas, the quiet , long range precise fire from a BASR can be devestating
On the other hand, when stuck in semi urban enviroments the DMR is a more practical choice and I do use it often
things to consider
1. Are you playing a lot of milsim events?
2. What are the ROE and FPS limits at the events you play at or fields
3. What type of AO do you spend most of your time at?
Now when in doubt , take both, have both and make use of both. Before each game ask youself this
1. What is my mission for this round or evolution
2. What is the enviroment at that AO (ranges, cover, noise, sight lines etc)
3. What are the weather conditons
4. What kind of support do I have (do you have a spotter, a support squad , simulated airstrikes or indirect fire missions
5. What do you have as a backup weapon in case it hits the fan?
Like I said, it's all about the right tool and its best to always have both. One thing a BASR will always have over an AEG is reliability, so even if you don't use it at an op, have it with you as a back up that will not strip gears, run out of gas or batteries, and will go bang every time you pull the trigger
ME, at large ops, I carry my VSR, a very modified pistol and a dissaembled Honey Badger in my back pack in case I get seperated from my support system and have to fight my way home
And no, i'm not anti AEG at all. Look at my profile pic, thats a 450 fps M14 and it will reach out and touch you. That day my mission was to support an assaulting squad against 4 real life SpecOps guys. I was going to need to get down and dirty and those guys like to use overwhelming suppression by fire from cover. I needed long range , precise , high volume fire to suppress the enemy so my squad could advance on the target.
Later that day, I was given a deep infiltration mission to smoke enemy command and control before a second assault on a different target. My BASR was the perfect tool.
Have all the tools. Never use a screwdriver as a hammer or vice versa
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Agreed, ArcAngel! A utensil for every course, as it were...
Now listen, you guys are getting carried away with this whole sadistic behaviour thing even though it is pretty funny. As long as the guy bugs out from his position, that's all that really matters. I never take a head shot....so if I rattle the tree and get him to stand up, or change position, then I get a body shot! It's strategy, really...works every time. It's just like deer hunting....head shots are a no no. You have to be patient...except a deer is far smarter than an airsoft sniper. Hehehehehe....
It's merely a flush em out technique. Ok, it's kind of fun too, but you catch my drift.
Anyhew, as stated by Arc, much of it depends on the game. Here, BASR's are capped at 500 fps and AEG's at 420 (even DMR's are classed as AEG's). The foliage is quite thick and a clean shot above 200 feet is really something. So, the BASR loses a lot of advantage in those situations. It can still operate, but you need a solid second for when it gets thick. But, being a mechanic, a screwdriver IS a hammer, and a pry bar, and a pick tool, and, and, and.....Hehehehehehe.
Now listen, you guys are getting carried away with this whole sadistic behaviour thing even though it is pretty funny. As long as the guy bugs out from his position, that's all that really matters. I never take a head shot....so if I rattle the tree and get him to stand up, or change position, then I get a body shot! It's strategy, really...works every time. It's just like deer hunting....head shots are a no no. You have to be patient...except a deer is far smarter than an airsoft sniper. Hehehehehe....
It's merely a flush em out technique. Ok, it's kind of fun too, but you catch my drift.
Anyhew, as stated by Arc, much of it depends on the game. Here, BASR's are capped at 500 fps and AEG's at 420 (even DMR's are classed as AEG's). The foliage is quite thick and a clean shot above 200 feet is really something. So, the BASR loses a lot of advantage in those situations. It can still operate, but you need a solid second for when it gets thick. But, being a mechanic, a screwdriver IS a hammer, and a pry bar, and a pick tool, and, and, and.....Hehehehehehe.
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I kid
Even in "actual" cases of borderline-sadism like Kickingmustang with all his headshot/skin-shot mind-game scare-tactic controversy, I remain neutral (even if I think it's harsh). After all, you know what you're signing up for when you walk onto a field...you can get shot- anywhere. I accidentally shot a friend in the nuts one time just outside MED- he was down for a while lol
Even in "actual" cases of borderline-sadism like Kickingmustang with all his headshot/skin-shot mind-game scare-tactic controversy, I remain neutral (even if I think it's harsh). After all, you know what you're signing up for when you walk onto a field...you can get shot- anywhere. I accidentally shot a friend in the nuts one time just outside MED- he was down for a while
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