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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello to all the seasoned Long Ranger shooters. It’s 2020, but all the reviews I read so far seem to be outdated. I like to ask if the VFC Avalon Samurai that comes out of the box with Maple Leaf hop bucking and Maple Leaf precision barrel 6.02 is good enough for precision shooting? The other one that I am looking at is G&G BAMF Team, I understand it comes with a brass 6.04 barrel.

VFC Avalon Samurai vs G&G BAMP Team? Your comments please. Or is there another AEG that is more suitable for precision shooting?
 

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They‘re nothing special in terms of accuracy, they’re like any other aeg out there.
Where did you read that the vfc comes with a maple leaf bucking? I didn‘t find that anywhere.
If the vfc comes with a ML bucking installed, it will have an advantage over the g&g. You can easily put a ML bucking in any aeg though.
In my opinion, you should just get a rifle you like, and put in a ML bucking and omega nub yourself. Maybe upgrade the barrel, and try to increase the airseal of your components to have less fps deviation.
You could also take a look at r-hop.
 

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I agree with Fynn. Any out of the box rifle will need some work to really get it to turn on. First and foremost, I would ensure consistency. Make it do the same thing every shot and you're more than halfway there.

This may sound blasphemous, but I'm losing my faith in precision barrels, and noticing that they're not as important as I once thought. Money for nothing... My latest rifle has an aluminum Combat Machine barrel in it and is dead on. But, everything ahead of that is very consistent...very. I also polished the begeezez out of that aluminum barrel so it's like glass inside. That sure helps! It'll probably wear faster eventually, but it's hard to beat free!
 

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Just pick a rifle you like and we can go from there.

Some people will tell you to go with a rifle with a larger longer cylinder, like those commonly found in SR25s and SVDs. Which does help some, but not hugely. (Really depends on what your doing, each use case will be different.)

Are you going to use it in actual games or is it going to be a backyard/range plinker?
 

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TargetShooter sent me a PM and I replied: (Edited a little that is not needed)


By the sound of it you want the best target rifle possible. For this you do not need a high end rifle. Most expensive rifles have a slightly nicer finish but in reality, the longevity of the more expensive rifle will be about the same as the cheaper one (don't go extra, extra cheap). Also, most AEG's are about as accurate as each other. The main thing that contributes to accuracy is high fps and heavy bb's.
So to get this, you need a rifle that can provide good energy. I normally recommend an SR25 for the extra cylinder volume it has and this is capable of 600-700fps (Not all SR25 have the extra cylinder volume so be careful). Obviously to get up to 600-700fps you need to change everything out including the gearbox case. You can use an M4 reasonably reliably up to about 550fps if you change everything. If you do not change the gearbox I would aim for 500fps at the most otherwise it will not last. 500fps is still pretty awesome


Anyway, at these high fps rates, things wont last forever but you should get some good use out of them before things start to go.
 

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TargetShooter sent me a PM and I replied: (Edited a little that is not needed)

Also, most AEG's are about as accurate as each other. The main thing that contributes to accuracy is high fps and heavy bb's.
Correction. (we can fight about it later)

Also, most AEG's are about as accurate as each other. The main thing that contributes to accuracy is the perfect barrel>cylinder ratio, decent hop and heavy bb's.
 

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The main thing that contributes to accuracy is the perfect barrel>cylinder ratio, decent hop and heavy bb's.
Cylinder to Barrel ratio: AEG's are pretty forgiving when it comes to cylinder to barrel ratios because there is no suck back effect (or very little that it is not noticeable). This is because once the piston reaches the cylinder head, the sector gear is already just pulling back the tappet (if timed correctly) and this allows air in the rear of the bucking. So no negative pressure which means the rifle can still be accurate even when it is under volumed. You do not necessarily need a correct match to still be accurate but it does help to get the most efficiency out of your rifle.

Decent Hop: When making a high fps rifle, it is easy to get hop even with a standard bucking because there is such a big pressure spike. So I often do not bother with Maple Leaf or R-hop.

Heavy BBs: I agree, heavy bb's are needed

Stabilising the inner barrel: Means bb should exit in the exact same fashion as the previous bb

Air Tightness: If the system is air tight then each shot should be the same. If one shot is weaker then it will most likely travel lower than the stronger shot.

Also, what correction????
 

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How heavy of a bb do you think would be best for a close to 400 fps AEG?
Around 0.32gm. Depending on your setup, you may be able to use a 0.36gm.
 

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I was going to say, you also don't need high fps to be accurate, what you do need is a rifle that can do the exact same thing shot after shot. Accuracy has nothing to do with power, but everything to do with being able to recreate the same action over and over...just like a real rifle.

One question I have for the OP, what range does this precision shooting have to happen at? I noticed that hasn't been addressed yet. If the range is 50 yards, you can precision shoot with just about anything...as long as it's consistent.

At 400 fps, a .32 can even be a little heavy...depending on your hop. Then again, alot of factors come into play...as always. hahahahaha
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Firstly, I impulsively bought a Tokyo Marui when I was in Japan about 10 years ago. It is a M16, the sights are not adjustable, it uses AA size battery (I think 6), the battery case is in the hand guard. I believe the FPS is under 200. It was a total waste of money, so please forgive me if I didn’t know how much Airsoft has improved.

Now I want to get into Airsoft seriously coz I have access to a 30m rifle range. My definition of precision shooting means - 3 single shots- grouping size <1 inch (that’s what the good shooters are doing there with real rifles).

From all your inputs, I can start with heavier BB (like 0.28) and a decent AEG (with a good mechbox - about USD400) and just ensure there are - a good hop rubber bucking (like ML) and a good nub (stick with the stock inner barrel first, as long as I clean it out well and ensure the inside is smooth.... coz choosing the tightness and length of a new aftermarket barrel, means I have to match It to the correct air volume, FPS and bb weight and I am sure all of you will agree I should not look into that yet.

**Please educate me more on nub.

Point- I am starting to understand why an AEG can be overall more accurate (for my needs) than a Bolt. Thanks to your excellent explanations, now I know that it’s not that easy to upgrade a Bolt, as all the parts must match (almost perfectly) in order to produce desired performance. While AEG has a much wider range of allowances to match all its parts to produce good solid performance.

As for the AEG that I am looking at - VFC Avalon Samurai Edge - I am sure that it comes with (1) ML hop rubber bucking (2) ML inner barrel and (3) pre-cock piston function in Semi mode (I believe this is good for my needs. And I won’t be firing the 2nd shot that quickly, so the piston will be well settled in the pre-cock position and every shot should be equally consistent.)

So far, I have only confirmed that this AEG (Samurai Edge) comes with this pre-cock function out of the box (see attached photos). I also understand that Gate Titan can pre-cock too, but that’s an expensive aftermarket upgrade. I will email G&G to ask if their model, BAMF Team has the pre-cock function straight out of the box.

**Does anyone here know of any other AEG that comes standard with the pre-cock function? So I can widen my choices.

I might be able to use the 70m outdoor archery range too. If so, I can look forward to shooting longer distances.

Once again, thank you. Look forward to your inputs.

Oh, lastly, I will be buying in Taiwan. Therefore, I would prefer to look at Taiwanese brands.
 

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I was going to say, you also don't need high fps to be accurate, what you do need is a rifle that can do the exact same thing shot after shot. Accuracy has nothing to do with power, but everything to do with being able to recreate the same action over and over...just like a real rifle.
Higher fps gets the bb to the target faster meaning external factors like wind will not effect the bb as much. Also, with higher fps, you can use heavier bb's which hold there energy for longer and are not as effected by wind.

At 400 fps, a .32 can even be a little heavy...depending on your hop. Then again, alot of factors come into play...as always. hahahahaha
True. A lot of setups can struggle especially if they have a long inner barrel. Maybe I should have said 0.3gm-0.36gm.
I know that SHEED and I both use 0.28gm-0.3gm with 350fps but this is with rifles that have shorter inner barrels and so there is more of a spike for the bb to go past the bucking fast and get backspin.
So for peoples info: It is easier to backspin a heavier bb with a shorter inner barrel as you normally need a slightly bigger spring to get the same fps as other rifles and this can create more of a pressure spike when the bb first moves.
 

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Agreed 1 tonne. Higher fps is always better, but how far he has to shoot is a huge determining factor as to how much he's going to have to spend and put into the rifle to get it there.

Targetonly, if your initial distance is 30m, it's going to be a piece of cake to get a rifle to do that. Forget about things like precocking and all that jazz...it's of no benefit to your situation, unless it helps you feel better about life. hahahaha.

Now, 70m is going to be a stretch, especially with an AEG, or even a bolt gun. A 1" group at 70m outdoors, forget it. Then again, a .22 LR out of a hunting rifle is barely that accurate.

Back to 30m. Which is still respectable for target fun... If you want a Taiwanese gun, it's really hard to beat a G&G. True, my Combat Machine is ridiculously modified, but it's still a Combat Machine frame. 30m groupings? Piece of cake.

G&G is a large brand with lots of offerings. You want modern? There's lots of them, vintage? That too. Any one will work as a build platform and they really won't need alot done to them to really put them on point. Say you get a Raider 2.0 with the built in mosfet, you're already off to a great start...add a good barrel and hop and it'll go into hole every time. Cheap too...left over money for snacks is important.

Now, what will also help is top quality BB's. Just like in real shooting, you're only as good as your bullets. Forget bios and go for as hard a BB as you can find that's really polished. Consistency is key for precision work so they need to be as close to the same size and weight as possible or you will get flyers.

When I target shoot with my pistols at home I use a local BB (probably a rebrand), but they are rock hard and very consistent. There will always be a slight variation, but for the most part, they're going to hit what you point at regardless if it's a pistol or a rifle.

For target shooting around here I do run .3's in everything. Pistols and rifles, but they all shoot 390-400 fps and they're all tuned exactly the same. They are very predictable...which is what you need for a winning gun. My sniper rifle fires .4's but it's hotter than the rifles, but at a range of say 50m, they're all in the hole. The sniper starts to come into importance at over 70m. The AEG's will still hit but naturally the grouping loosens a bit, whereas the sniper keeps right on trucking to about 85m....then it gradually becomes soft.

Anyhew, I digress...30m? Anything will do, focus on the ammo, the hop up, and consistency. 70m, still possible with a .3 or so, but really possible with a bolt gun. Outdoors, iffy at best depending on conditions. Not the gun's fault, or yours, just the physics of the BB...
 

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While you can just stick to your stock barrel, finding the correct cylinder/barrel/bb ratio isn´t complicated. 1Tonne has made a guide on that.
The nub is the part that applies pressure on your hop up bucking. It is just as important as the bucking itself. For the ML buckings, you can always go with their omega nub.
Precocking doesn´t have much to do with the consistency of your shots. It just means that your piston gets pulled back, before you pull the trigger. Therefore the motor has to pull the piston back less, giving you faster trigger response.

Higher fps will also increase the effect imperfections in the bb have on the flightpath.
 

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Higher fps will also increase the effect imperfections in the bb have on the flightpath.
That is normally countered by using heavier bb's which have a more stable centre of mass when in flight.
 

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That is normally countered by using heavier bb's which have a more stable centre of mass when in flight.
True, but the problem is that our bb weights are limited (unless you`re going for ceramics), and bbs heavier than 0.32g are pretty expensive (atleast for the use in an aeg).
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
To clarify things, at the 30m range, I will be trying to keep up with my local friends (as an expat, I cannot own real firearms like them).

At the archery range, I am not even sure that I can shoot Airsoft there. Anyway, there are target boards at a few distances, from 10m to 70m. In fact, the archers hardly shoot 70m distance.

Let me start my journey—-

BB wise, I have seen the Tokyo Marui 0.28 selling at my location store. That’s why, I thought of starting with that shooting from a rifle without upgraded spring. I expect about 330pfs. If I find heavier ones, I will get those.

Everything is consistency- that includes BB. I will try a few weights/brands and then stick to the most suitable one. Of course, when I change distance or go outdoors then I will adjust accordingly (I have to master the relevant science theories from you guys and apply them correctly to my situations).

BB issue understood and settled.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
@Fynn- I thought trigger response is important. My experience with my Marui trigger response was totally unacceptable. It is running. on AA Alkaline batteries. I think current AEG with Lipo will be much better for trigger response. However, if it’s pre-cock, trigger response will be almost instant, right?

With poor trigger response, I fear that I will move or shake between the time I pull the trigger and the time the BB exits the barrel. Am I over-rating pre-cock?

As for G&G, CM category rifles come with a Mechbox without ball bearing. As for their G2 Mechbox, I think that I won’t need to modify or upgrade anything. It has ball bearings, alum cylinder head with double o rings, alum piston head, full metal teeth piston, ball bearing spring guide, alum air nozzle with double o rings. I think I can go up to M130 spring without changing anything, and for M150 or M170 then I should to a cylinder without holes. agree?

So I think that if I buy the Raider at about USD200, I know that I will surely upgrade a lot. And end up spending more than buying a USD400 with just a few upgrades.

@1 tonne - G&G Mechbox G2 comes with MOSFET, so it means that it can pre-cock, right?

Second query is... I am still trying to understand what you said... let me rephrase it.... same spring and hop up setting... with shorter inner barrel will produce more backspin and higher FPS, right? Before the bb is fired.... a longer inner barrel is like a “thicker wall” of air, so more resistance in the bb path and shorter barrel is opposite?
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For my need, target shooting in semi mode only, if there is pre-cock, the rpm of my motor isn’t important, right?

Muzzle... does it affect the accuracy?

Thanks guys
 

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Yep, with precocking you can get instant trigger response.
You‘re right, when there’s less time between the triggerpull and the bb leaving the barrel, there’s less of a chance of you changing your point of aim accidentallly.
But I doubt the difference in precision would be noticeable, since airsoft guns aren’t very accurate anyways.
A fast trigger response feels better though:)

Shorter inner barrels produce less fps, because the bb is accelerated for less time (v=a*t, v: velocity, a: acceleration, t: time)
I think what 1Tonne said, was that since shorter barrels produce less fps, you will have to use a stronger spring to get the same fps that a longer barrel would produce. A stronger spring means a higher velocity when the bb hits the hop up (which is what he was referring to with the higher pressure spike I think). This results in a higher angular velocity of the bb, and therefore more hop.

Just because it has a mosfet, doesn’t mean it has precocking.
A mosfet protects the trigger contacts and gives slightly better trigger response because there’s less resistance.

Actually rpm do matter, because more rpm=more speed, which can result in faster trigger response. There’s a thread in a german forum, discussing high torque vs high speed (low rpm vs high rpm). A member got the best trigger response in a 1,5J 10:1 build using a 14tpa high speed motor (low tpa=high rpm), if I recall correctly.
I can look for that thread tomorrow and post the link if you want.
But when using precocking the difference between high torque and high speed would be very minimal (also dependent on what spring you’ve got in there).
 
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