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I've had two G&G M14's so far. The typical unit with the wood stock and the EBR-L which were both essentially the same rifle with a different stock. The sweet spot for an M14 like these is 400-415fps using .3's. I shot thousands and thousands of rounds with that set up and it was an extremely accurate rifle.

Now, the M14 is a version 7 box and the hop up is a little strange. One thing to keep in mind is that because of G&G's goofy trigger system you have to compensate for that as the shooter but aside from that, even with the stock barrel length of 509mm, it was an amazing platform.

Because of it's substantial weight, firing an M14 off of a bipod is the way to go and it will be rock steady. No weird vibrations, kick, or anything. If you go with an EBR-L, the scope mounts solidly and can be extremely precise. The best scope combo by far for this rifle was the 3-9x40. Even on full auto, the rifle was ridiculously accurate.

Now, bear in mind that in both cases they were heavily modified from stock. R hops, mosfets, the whole bit. The wood stock M14 fired at 410, the EBR-L at 415.
Zero, how does the G&G M14 compare to the TM M14. I have a TM spec one (G&P) and upgrading the hopup is a little weird. Any advice to make this perform as accurate as possible?
 

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Yeah as far as scopes go, you don't need nitrogen filled, shock proof (for recoil, not bumping), and all that hunting stuff. I bought some Bushnell cheapies off of eBay that worked fantastic and were cheap enough that if they got shot out, well, no big deal. As for my sniper, I'm still using the same NC Star I've had for almost ten years now. It is of premium quality but also has an unlimited replacement warranty, etc. Yes it is better, but still not hunting grade...but for airsoft, exceptional. More important in airsoft will be field of view and relief. That's where the 3-9x40 is solid.

FMP, I haven't had a whole pile of experience with the G&P, but I would say that although much of the G&G is proprietary, it is also really solid. REALLY SOLID...in fact, one of the best chassis I've ever seen on any rifle. It's whatever works for you personally at that point. I ended up completely gutting and rebuilding them anyways but the stock parts I did reause (which saved me a wad) were the hop up units, the motors, and the inner barrels. Believe it or not, the stock brass 6.04mm x 509mm barrel that comes in a Top Tech M14 is actually a fantastic piece of kit. The trigger on the G&P is probably better (less goofy) but the G&G's became such good shooters I was more than happy to live with that.

Now as far as improving your G&P, what's it shooting at now and what's in it so far?
 

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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
@Zero - G&G AEG parts are proprietary?

I saw reviews that VFC's digital firing system (comes stock with their latest model - looks like a copy of Gate Titan) is failing a lot!
Also seen review that ICS's SSS isn't that reliable.
On the other hand, G&G's latest electric trigger unit got many good reviews saying the trigger response is extremely good.
My guess- G&G has the simpliest system of these 3 (using mirco switch trigger and still can program Burst). VFC uses sensors like Titan and can pre-cook. ICS' SSS can diagnose problems in the rifle, like gears and even pre-cock in their version 2, so it uses sensors too. So my final conclusion (guessing that), in-house complicated systems with sensors are not as reliable as Gate Titan's sensors.

What do you guys think?

I was thinking of just buying a stock rifle (300-400 bucks range), then re-assemble it well and use. Reasons are
1) Avoid the need to buy upgrades immediately. Learn more, and buy the suitable upgrades for my needs later.
2) Gearbox that comes with this price range is the top stock gearbox already.

But I can't decide on a suitable rifle yet....
 

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I would stick to a well supported gearbox like the V2. I started my first DMR as an M14, which was a huge mistake. Difficult to tinker on, and problem after problem arose as I fixed another.
 

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Targetonly, certain G&G components are proprietary....but only in oddball models like the M14's, etc. In the M4's everything is ver 2 compatible. No problems whatsoever.

If I was building a super easily upgradeable rifle at the moment, it would be an M4, ver 2. Any of them will do. Cheaper than most, and upgrade parts are EVERYWHERE. Once you get a feel for upgrading rifles and trying different things, then go for something a little more unusual.
 

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Targetonly, certain G&G components are proprietary....but only in oddball models like the M14's, etc. In the M4's everything is ver 2 compatible. No problems whatsoever.

If I was building a super easily upgradeable rifle at the moment, it would be an M4, ver 2. Any of them will do. Cheaper than most, and upgrade parts are EVERYWHERE. Once you get a feel for upgrading rifles and trying different things, then go for something a little more unusual.
I wish I had done this when I started. I had the option to get a g&g sr25 for 300, and I turned it down. Dumb decision.
 

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@Zero - G&G AEG parts are proprietary?

I saw reviews that VFC's digital firing system (comes stock with their latest model - looks like a copy of Gate Titan) is failing a lot!
Also seen review that ICS's SSS isn't that reliable.
On the other hand, G&G's latest electric trigger unit got many good reviews saying the trigger response is extremely good.
My guess- G&G has the simpliest system of these 3 (using mirco switch trigger and still can program Burst). VFC uses sensors like Titan and can pre-cook. ICS' SSS can diagnose problems in the rifle, like gears and even pre-cock in their version 2, so it uses sensors too. So my final conclusion (guessing that), in-house complicated systems with sensors are not as reliable as Gate Titan's sensors.

What do you guys think?

I was thinking of just buying a stock rifle (300-400 bucks range), then re-assemble it well and use. Reasons are
1) Avoid the need to buy upgrades immediately. Learn more, and buy the suitable upgrades for my needs later.
2) Gearbox that comes with this price range is the top stock gearbox already.

But I can't decide on a suitable rifle yet....
The G&G fets blow out quite often. I have replaced about 20 in the last 6 months.

No fet is perfect, I had a few Titans show up dead straight from Gate. Though Gate generally has really solid CS so they get you a new one pretty quick.

Your reasons are not super great. Especially #2, ARES is a prime example why. They have amazing externals, probably some of the best you can get out of airsoft, yet there internals are laughably bad. They generally retail 350+. G&P i5 line. A lot of techs hate the i5, as the system is "junk". I do not like it due to the changes in the gearbox made to accommodate the system. While still a V2 gearbox, its next to impossible to drop in an aftermarket fet when that one dies.

The need for "upgrades" is solely dependent on how good your internals actually are, and how they fit together. You can buy a Krytac, G&G, G&P, LCT, whatever, and it has the chance to blow up first time you use it. No brand is exempt from that. Though the odds are in your favor when you buy a more premium product that you shouldn't need to do anything to it right out the gate.

CYMA AKs are pretty well known for taking absurd levels of abuse and keep on trucking like nothing happened. Those are cheap. Also helps that the V3 gearbox is strong compared to a V2, design wise.

The LCT LC3 would make a solid DMR. V2 compatible, 9mm bearings out of the box. The only real weak point is that it is heavy like the real thing and the gearset. You will likely blow the bevel gear out in about a year.
 
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The G&G fets blow out quite often. I have replaced about 20 in the last 6 months.

No fet is perfect, I had a few Titans show up dead straight from Gate. Though Gate generally has really solid CS so they get you a new one pretty quick.
I agree, alot of the FETs aren't very impressive. Well, not true...impressive in features but surely not in durability. Especially the ones that live inside the gearbox like the Titan or the G&G. That's a pretty hostile environment for tiny little components like that.

I still prefer an outboard FET. It is less susceptible to the shock inside the gearbox and the traditional trigger contacts are overkill for that little switching voltage. :tup:
 

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.
Now as far as improving your G&P, what's it shooting at now and what's in it so far?
Sorry for the late response. So far I have installed a Gate Warfet, a steel cutoff lever, shimmed the gearbox alright, Teflon on cylinder head and bucking (ML 60, trimmed a little too short, but to fit M14 chamber), wrapped the stock barrel in a slight but of masking tape for rigidity in the outer barrel, and I've also installed a sorbo pad and modified cyma steel rack piston. Two nights ago I finally repaired the gearbox. Current problem is that airseal is absolute crap. Like 220 fps crap. I think the problem is the nozzle, since the tappet spring is bent all wierd directions. FYI, the internals were GARBAGE. If I had to make the decision again, I would have gone for a CYMA. The piston stripped, I had issues with semi from the start, and accuracy was really mediocre. Externals were pleasant, however. Anyways, stuff has been filed to fit, but I still have issues with that airseal. Any suggestions? I need a new nozzle anyways, should I purchase a new spring for the tappet plate? Thanks Zero.
 

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Sorry for several posts, but now that I recall, I have more relevant information. I had bought a second hopup chamber, and when I was testing that, the chamber was too tight. Basically, the bb stayed lodged at the tip of the barrel and bucking while the nozzle banged against it. I swapped back to the original chamber, and problems solved. Now there's the fps problem. I'm thinking maybe all that repeated banging caused the bucking lips to expand, causing poor airseal. When I handheld the gearbox, adjusting fitment into the hopup chamber, I did see some significant fps increases (300s).
 

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Sorry for several posts, but now that I recall, I have more relevant information. I had bought a second hopup chamber, and when I was testing that, the chamber was too tight. Basically, the bb stayed lodged at the tip of the barrel and bucking while the nozzle banged against it. I swapped back to the original chamber, and problems solved. Now there's the fps problem. I'm thinking maybe all that repeated banging caused the bucking lips to expand, causing poor airseal. When I handheld the gearbox, adjusting fitment into the hopup chamber, I did see some significant fps increases (300s).
I think you found your own problem right there. :tup: I'd start with another bucking....any other bucking and see if it makes a difference. Cheapest fix first.:yup:
 

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Sorry for several posts, but now that I recall, I have more relevant information. I had bought a second hopup chamber, and when I was testing that, the chamber was too tight. Basically, the bb stayed lodged at the tip of the barrel and bucking while the nozzle banged against it. I swapped back to the original chamber, and problems solved. Now there's the fps problem. I'm thinking maybe all that repeated banging caused the bucking lips to expand, causing poor airseal. When I handheld the gearbox, adjusting fitment into the hopup chamber, I did see some significant fps increases (300s).
I think you found your own problem right there.
I'd start with another bucking....any other bucking and see if it makes a difference. Cheapest fix first.
Thanks, Zero. I've had so much trouble with this rifle, it's good to have a knowledgeable community!
 

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Y'know, airsoft rifles are all basically junk when you think about it. hehehehe. They suck when they're stock, they can be a real pain in the donkey to get shooting right, and they'll never be what we need them to be....but dammit they're so fun! hahahaha

Ok, philosophical observations aside, some maunre samples are harder to polish than others, if you catch my drift. I'll admit it, I cleaved my Thompson right in the middle it was a such a piece of dung....yet right after, my Combat Machine went together just by dumping it on the bench and waiting for the pieces to magically fit...which they did.

Point being, after decades of fixing every manner of junk out there, you'll get to a point where you can either figure it out, or cut your losses and invest in something else like an RC plane. :D

Hang in there brother...
 

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Yeah well, I have my first bolt action (a&k svd) to work on if this one cracks, and I can tell you, I'm looking forward to it. I plan on putting some airsoftpro parts in it. But yeah, you're 100% right. Before I actually bought a nice gun to work on (the days when I scoured the forums looking for knowledge), I thought that it was just a matter of the right parts. Boy, was I wrong. Now, well over $1000 into the hobby, I am just starting to understand some stuff. It's funny, you look at a number like $1000 and think about all the stuff it could buy, but in the end it seems to be a lot of expenses on repairs. I have yet to purchase a nice barrel in any of the guns I've owned. I've tinkered with hopup, but most of my time has been on getting the gearbox to work, not because I want to, but because ITS GARBAGE. I realize more and more why I support built, not bought, and even after spending all that money on stuff that I never used, or that just got wasted in resell, I'm still thankful for the experience.

Now, back to the thread topic.
 

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Oh that's still very much on topic, and very relevant there, FMP. After all, to make a precision shooter, you have to take all of that into consideration. It's not just raiding a shelf and making it go.

I think if I take all the guns I've bought and sold, minus the pistols, the one bolt gun, and one AEG I still have, I might only be in the hole for the cost of BB's and peripherals like CO2, etc. I'm pretty sure I broke even on the guns. Labour? Forget it...that all went *poof*! hahahahaha. We'll file that under 'training'. In our business we call it 'unapplied labour'. hehehehe

Truth be told it could've been far worse. You could be thousands in the hole with this hobby and still not have learned anything. I know a few people who gave it all away to the shop techs (who bless their soul did the very best they could), but only to hit the field and not understand how it worked and still broke it.

In fact, the guy I sold my epic EBR-L to last summer let his kids fool with it and within 48 hours it was destroyed. Luckily, it was a cash deal...no takesy backsies!

Now, to reiterate your point about gearboxes, etc. Of course these things are garbage. They are mass produced where price point and upgrades factor hard into the R&D process. For example, they suck you in with a 200 dollar rifle, knowing full well it's junk until you dump another wad into it...and all that is calculated into the entire costing structure. Gotta love big business...hahahaha

So, how does this figure into precision? There is NO off the shelf goodies that you can plug and play and still expect top performance. Just like real steel, hot rods, lowriders, ariplanes, computers, anything. Something that really performs cannot be mass produced at an affordable price point, it's simply too labour intensive and the profit margin is negligible. This isn't being a naysayer, it's just basic math. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #57 ·
G&G mosfet burn out issue
@plazma and @zero, do you guys know why is the G&G mosfet burn so often (that mosfet unit is in the battery compartment, right?)? Can another brand mosfet replace it, like a Gate Warfet?

The ETU in the gearbox is very durable, yes? Is this better than the traditional trigger? I agree with Zero that the inside of the gearbox is a hostile place, so I feel that those sensor type trigger with built-in mosfet cannot last inside a gearbox. We don"t see much complains about Gate Titans (some love it, some hate it), but I see quite a lot of complains for VFC's Virgo sensor trigger system that comes with their newest Avalon model. Even for ICS top tier models, some come with traditional trigger and some come with sensor system at the trigger. G&G ETU and external mosfet unit is low tech compared to VFC and ICS (nowhere near Titan). I prefer to go low tech for trigger and mosfet. Please correct me if you think otherwise.

Strong gearbox for a high fps built - G&G ok?
G&G V2 Gearboxes, I believe that CM and GC have the same gearbox, except that CM comes bushings and GC comes with ball bearings. Their older TR gearbox is actually like GC except it has the blowback function. In terms of the strength of all these 3 are the same, right? What do you think the highest spring level can these gearboxes handle? I have seen video of this gearbox crack before.

G&G latest top G2 gearbox - is thicker. Claim to be tougher. It has be out there for a few years already, have you guys heard of it cracked? This is G&G toughest gearbox, question is whether is G2 gearbox tougher than VFC Avalon gearbox or ICS CS4 split gearbox? Currently, I am considering only these 3 choices, which one has the toughest gearbox to use for my build. Although I heard KWA gearbox is tough, but I am not considering KWA coz it is hard to upgrade the hop up chamber.

Thanks guys.
 

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Discussion Starter · #58 ·
Summary of what I have learnt

AEG Cylinder -
Material: Normally stock cylinder are made of Aluminum or Brass. Steel cylinder is an upgrade part. I know that steel surface can be polished until it is very smooth. While, Aluminum surface cannot, so Aluminum has to be coated. There are a few kinds of coatings, and some of these coatings can be smoother or as smooth as Steel, but these coatings cannot last forever. I know little about Brass. I noticed that Brass cylinders are not coated, so I believe that Brass surface can be as smooth as Steel. Brass cylinder come as stock in higher priced rifles only. However, it is cinfirmed that Brass is not as hard as Steel, so Steel should be the most suitable material for cylinders. Aluminum or metal piston head and piston should be matched with Steel cylinder only, coz these will wear down Aluminum cylinder and Brass cylinder faster.


Ported or Full cylinder.
By right, it should be matched to the inner barrel's air volume.

However, if the inner barrel is within the suitable range to use both type of cylinder (meaning, use ported cylinder without under air volume or use full cylinder without extreme over air volume) which cylinder will produce more consistent air compression and fps? Assuming that all other elements are the same - same barrel, bb, spring and complete piston. While the final high or low fps, joules and range are immaterial. Only consistency is most important.

To my understanding, based on the above example, a ported cylinder will produce more fps than a full cylinder, coz the piston accelerated before compressing air. The piston in the full cylinder push out more air volume at a slower speed. Please correct me if I am wrong.

I think that a ported cylinder is less consistent than a full cylinder. Reason- with ported cylinder, when fired - the piston accelerates faster and faster at the ported part until it starts to compress air, which causes a big drop in the piston speed and then the piston will slow down gradually till it stops suddenly by the cylinder head. As for a full cylinder, the moment the piston moves forward, it is compressing air and it doesn't accelerate that quickly. There is also no big drop in speed like the above mentioned. So it will be more consistent. Please correct me if I am wrong.

If using a full cylinder is pushing out too much air volume, then the solution is to short stroke the piston travel by removing tooth or teeth from the sector gear. There might be a need to use a stronger spring. Anyway, a full compression of a weaker spring is equally as stressful as a shorter compression of a stronger spring. Please advise if this is a bad way.

Inner Barrel diameter
Their common inner diameters range from 6.01mm to 6.08mm.
I am confuse about their outer diameter. Is there a range too?

Hop Up Chamber
I read that Maxx Hop Up Chamber comes in 2 models. Model ME (for TM) has front bore for 11.00mm to 11.5mm and Model MI (for ICS) has front bore for 11.50mm to12mm
Can anyone explain?
 

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To my understanding, based on the above example, a ported cylinder will produce more fps than a full cylinder, coz the piston accelerated before compressing air.
If a full cylinder has the correct barrel length for the bb weight then it will always produce more fps than a rifle with a ported cylinder and the correct barrel length. The reason being is that the bb has more time in the barrel to accelerate. (I done experiments many years ago on this. Though I did not experiment with weighted pistons and so in this instance, it may be different. I doubt it though)
 

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About mosfets and gearboxes...the newer G&G's with the radiused corners and gussets are better than say a standard CM gearbox, but it isn't a magic unicorn. The maximum I would ever go is an M120. If you can't get your rifle to shoot with that spring, your problem is somewhere else. The highest spring I've ever put in an AEG is an M110 and I still get 400+ fps when I want to. Even then, FPS is irrelevant if your rifle is not accurate..always work that angle first.

As for the mosfets, the microswitches on most of the internal units I've seen are simply too small, or get contaminated by the grease and fail. They're not designed for those temperatures, duty cycles, or shock. They put them in there because they're small and they fit. It's just a crappy little switch!

I've had far more success with traditional style trigger switches used to switch an external mosfet. When I say external, it's either in the handgrip or the stock. The mosfet stays cooler (for example up in the handguard of a carbine), and the traditional contacts are very solid when used as a mosfet trigger. Remember, the more options you put in your rifle, the more likely it is to break. Think AK, Dodge Slant Six (if you're too young, look it up). These are superbly durable systems that are dead simple...but last forever.

The mosfets I build are also simple, but can handle the C's of any lipo. In years now I've had no fails and no issues. No, I don't have burst fire, or 30 rps, but I don't need it. Really.

Oh, another thing about using a lighter spring whenever possible, less impact to the internals. You can get away with a traditional gearbox (like a CM) because you aren't smashing it to bits everytime the piston lets go.

As for cylinders, 1 tonne has it bang on. Weighted pistons don't change that statement. Not to any measurable degree that's for sure. :)
 
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