[wyz2285]

Well, are you a professional brewer? How professional is your setup? I have tasted craft beer from small business and most of times they rock compared to the commonest 6 pack. If done by someone who has little knowledge about beer I'd rather not taste it.
The best performer is never, ever directly sold (not trying to offend maple defenders). The price for perfection is never profitable for mass production. May it be cars, knifes, shoes, whatever you can think of.

 

[Blind Sniper]

I like your style Zero *finger guns* 🙂

 

[Zero Roaster]

Blind Sniper, idealistic and romantic, perhaps, but dead like the dinosaur, I'm afraid... hehehe

 

[Sodium]

@Zero even if you didnt do a comparison, could you post a grouping of your rifle? Literally any groupings of yours would be extremely relevant and potentially inspiring. Some of us here simply dont have the time to tech towards a dream without confirmation that it is infact possible. I would love to work towards something better, but the idk if the opportunity cost is really there. Also wyz, just seeing one of your groupings, even if not done with a comparison, would be really interesting.

Edit: The reason I am so pushy for this stuff is because I am in college and have no time to tech. My rifle is back home, so for now, I can only gain knowledge without tests. Also, I agree, 250 ft would probably be better than 300 ft. I only said 300 because if zeros results are as amazing as they have sounded, it sounds like 300ft groupings are realistic.

 

[Dimitri MdP]

Well, are you a professional brewer? How professional is your setup? I have tasted craft beer from small business and most of times they rock compared to the commonest 6 pack.

Yes I am. Or was. As I said, I've even won medals for some of my beers. Getting there was a road full of awful beers first, and being honest, even after getting everything right sometimes they would come out "not no great" every now and then, as the malt might be a little different, or the yeast active cells quantities were different, or the bach of hops got a somewhat different profile, even after adjusting for the alpha and beta acids of that yield.

There are a million little things that can go wrong, and there are a million processes to prevent that. But guess what... at the point where you're really accounting for all of those, you're really making industrial beer.

And I'm definitely not comparing them to your average lager six pack, I'm talking about craft-like beers done at industrial level. They simply get the same results, with a 100% consistency.

Same thing for the damn R-hop, only much more evident as there's no "personal taste" on hop ups, just phisics. As long as the hop is able to lift the given ammo and avoiding side-hop, they will provide the same results.
And that's why I know for a fact that Maple Leaf Autobot performs just as good as any R-hop, even if buid by the world's top R-hoper.

 

[Zero Roaster]

Hey Sodium, good on ya for going to college! Well done. I was never a huge fan of the pompous jackasses that ran the science departments at the Big U, but the access to information and how to use it was magical...especially at that time when there was no real
internet. Yes, really. Just having the library card was like a ticket to Disney World.

A picture is useless. Sure I have a couple photos of some guns I tested last winter, but it's not 'legit' info, really. Especially nowadays. Did I shoot from three feet away or 300? Standing, standing rest, prone, locked on a bench...all these facts don't show up in a picture. I do have a pic in the AEG section (I think) where I popped 20 rounds into a half inch hole with my now defunct EBR. That's kind of what I use as a standard. If I can get 20 rounds into a half inch (usually less) hole at say 50 ft, that's a very consistent gun. By 50 feet any irregular rotation on the BB will have made itself known and the shots will start spreading. So, thread the needle at 50, and you're doing pretty well. I do have a short video of my L96 hitting a target at 60 yards using the scope mounted laser as a target, and the BB hits the laser every time. Not bad for 180 feet. In most games I don't even use the scope. If the red dot is on 'em, they're down. I'd post the video, but it would disclose where my test facility is. No can do.

At distances over 200 feet I use a loaf of bread (or something about that size). If I can slice a sandwich at that distance, that's quite good for commercially made ammunition. Let's not forget, we're only as good as our ammo...ever shoot Russian surplus? hahahaha. I'm so happy Hornady makes 7.62 now, but I digress.

So, in the world of a plastic BB, the long range comes from balancing between the force vectors at play, and the internal balance of the projectile itself (which is virtually impossible to test). So, if I can still get a definitive kill shot between the trees at 80 yards? Golden...

 

[Zero Roaster]

Hey Dimitri, maybe that's the problem...it's not just physics! There has to be a little wonder and magic in there or it is just science. Physics is a tool box. It provides us with a little working knowledge of things and some short cuts to define and quantify our intentions, but the actual act of a BB flying is pure magic!

Every time I launch my little RC plane into the air, I feel like the first time I ever saw a plane fly. Bewildered, excited, and amazed. I know all the science behind flight, and of course how to fly a plane, but there's always that wonder...that love for the air...and that holds true for the BB too.

When you fire a shot, it's more than just a calculator spinning numbers....you're making a static object FLY. It's generating lift, using gyroscopic action to stay straight, how frikken cool is that?!?!?! It's not physics...that part is purely art...and yes, like beer, or smoked ribs, you can season it to taste.

 

[wyz2285]

Same thing for the damn R-hop, only much more evident as there's no "personal taste" on hop ups, just phisics. As long as the hop is able to lift the given ammo and avoiding side-hop, they will provide the same results.
And that's why I know for a fact that Maple Leaf Autobot performs just as good as any R-hop, even if buid by the world's top R-hoper.

Then any bucking will work, you don't even need maple bucking. A stock bucking mounted right will not side hop and can lift >0,4, you just need the hop arm to press it deep enough. Maple bucking does it better by extend the contact so you don't have to press so hard, and r-hop can be made to have even better contact.

 

[AccurateDMD]

Well until one of you R Hop diehards can either produce some testing or a tutorial so that someone else could do it, I think everyone else is going to need to see proof.

As it stands I, and others it seems, don't believe nor have we ever seen an R Hop outperform a well installed standard hop up. I've seen them produce equal results, but like Dmitri said, backspin is backspin. If it's straight, level, and consistent, you're going to get the same results or near enough to never see a difference.

 

[wyz2285]

Zero may not provide one, but I certainly can and will working on a tutorial! If you're handy and have the proper tools and patients, I'd be glad to see some other people try it.

 

[Plazmaburn]

I would be greatly interested in a tutorial. Especially a well documented one that covers tuning. Most of the "tutorials" I have read and seen are some hot garbage that don't cover shit.

 

[SHEED]

Most of the "tutorials" I have read and seen are some hot garbage that don't cover shit.

That's exactly the problem with R-hop. 1tonne and I have been compraing normal buckings vs R-hop. His guns are normal bucking while I'm R-hopping. Even after alot of tuning we still get similar results.

So I'm trying to find out, excalty what am I not tuning right? because what I'm reading says if I tune it right I'll out shoot him every time.

Something that documents the process of tuning an r-hop well would be great.

 

[Plazmaburn]

That's exactly the problem with R-hop. 1tonne and I have been compraing normal buckings vs R-hop. His guns are normal bucking while I'm R-hopping. Even after alot of tuning we still get similar results.

So I'm trying to find out, excalty what am I not tuning right? because what I'm reading says if I tune it right I'll out shoot him every time.

Something that documents the process of tuning an r-hop well would be great.

If you have sifted or been around long enough, most people will know I am not the biggest fan of Rhops. I have yet to see a "good" one. I have spent more then enough in my search for a "good install," and even after sending a rifle to some "professional tech" to have the entire gun tuned, my tuned builds still do a better job compared to this "pro tuned" thing.

At of this moment I am still pretty firm in my current opinion of Rhops. Not Necessary, Over-Rated. In my experiences, rhops do not magically outperform any of the current commercially available hopup designs that replicate the same principle as the Rhop. The performance about the same. I have yet to see this magical "laser" that people go on about with rhops installed. Thats not to say ML or similar do not have their share of issues.

Now this is not to say I cannot have my mind changed. Just need proof in hand and not a one off. I want repeatable. If someone can produce a tutorial that can guarantee good results, I might change my mind. Though at this rate, I don't see that happening anytime soon. (No offense)

Hopefully you(wyz2285) (or someone else) will put some effort into an in-depth rhop guide.

 

[Zero Roaster]

Who knows, maybe once winter sets in I'll have a little more time. We're just trying to get buildings finished and gravel spread out before the cold sets in again. Up here that means probably within the next couple of weeks. The days are already getting really short so it won't be long before our gravel pile 'solidifies'. hehehehe.

Anyhew, we'll see how much time we have depending on how harsh winter is. After all it does last close to 9 months, so there should be a few hours in there. Let me chew on this a bit and I'll see what I can come up with. I do have a Combat Machine in pieces that I have to slam together to sell off (my last rifle!), so maybe I'll do a bit of a diary on it...

 

[FMP Airsoft]

I think the allure of an Rhop is that it can be customised, it can be finetuned, whereas a ML is only able to be installed and taken more or less as is. I have not personally made an Rhop nor used one, but just recently I used a custom cut eraser nub on my ML bucking. It's interesting, the groupings might not have been better, but it still felt really good to see something I had MADE performing so well. The ability to fine tune a hop up is quite important in my low level of experience.

 

[Fynn64]

I think the allure of an Rhop is that it can be customised, it can be finetuned, whereas a ML is only able to be installed and taken more or less as is. I have not personally made an Rhop nor used one, but just recently I used a custom cut eraser nub on my ML bucking. It's interesting, the groupings might not have been better, but it still felt really good to see something I had MADE performing so well. The ability to fine tune a hop up is quite important in my low level of experience.

This is exactly what I thought!

There are so many videos showing how to install an r-hop. But none of them covers how to fine tune one, maybe its so obvious that it doesn´t need an explanation, but I guess most people simply think just installing the patch is enough.
The benefit of an r-hop over a ML or similar, is that it can be tuned to your exact setup. If it´s not fine tuned, I don´t see a difference to a drop-in solution.

I have some r-hop patches laying around, once I get a better barrel and my mill, I´ll do some testing. I would also be interested in how a fixed r-hop performs compared to an adjustable one. I think I have to try out...

 

[1tonne]

From what I can tell you can tune ML just the same. All tuning is, is getting it to shoots straight. ML already does this straight off but is someone wished, they can add a little electrical tape to the top of the nub on one side to create a sideways curve. But why would you when they shoot straight anyway.

 

[AccurateDMD]

From what I can tell you can tune ML just the same. All tuning is, is getting it to shoots straight. ML already does this straight off but is someone wished, they can add a little electrical tape to the top of the nub on one side to create a sideways curve. But why would you when they shoot straight anyway.

*assuming ML Quality Control fairies have blessed you.

Looking at the omega nub specifically.

 

[1tonne]

Maybe. I never really have an issue with any bucking. It would be the rarest of occasion that a bucking has an issue. (Very rear)

 

[FMP Airsoft]

Was gonna post some results on the eraser nub vs the omega nub, but probably won't have time to till this weekend. I went out to shoot today, and to my dismay the gun was shooting to the left (albeit pretty consistently). I guess more fine tuning is in order! 😀