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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Time for people to rethink what about long nubs. Are standard buckings just as good?

When I first started airsoft, I used standard buckings, then eventually I made an R-Hop and I thought to myself that it was more accurate and gave longer range. But I now believe that this was just a psychological thing where you put something new into your rifle it works and makes you feel positive. So you naturally think that it is giving you more accuracy and range.
Now after many years of using Maple Leaf and R-hop, I now believe that they are just as accurate as a standard bucking and that they do not give more range with a standard setup rifle.

The only time when a long nub is useful is when we use a very uncommon setup with extra heavy bb's and low fps. So for example, a 350fps AEG and using 0.4gm bb's. The low fps AEG, if it has a standard bucking, may not create the backspin needed to fling the heavy weight bb. In this instance, a long nub will help create more backspin to help lift the heavy bb. But if the person then decides to use a normal bb weight for the 350fps rifle with the long nub, as most people do (0.25-0.3gm), they will find that there is no advantage. So same accuracy and same range. The only advantage is when using extra heavy weight bb's. These heavy weight bb's do have a straighter trajectory. But who uses a 0.4gm in a 350fps AEG? Not many people. I know some may. But not many

You can also make a low fps rifle shoot heavy weight bb's with a standard bucking by simply creating a pressure spike. So no need for a long nub. This is often done by using a shorter barrel and a bigger spring. The bigger spring pushes the bb past the nub at such a speed that it creates a lot of backspin. This is also what can happen with a lot of gas guns and so many people do it in Mk1 or Mk23 pistols.

Now this is a sniper forum and most of us here are using higher joules than most rifles. These higher joule rifles have big springs and they create big pressure spikes. So most of us do not need a long nub. I mean, anyone who has a rifle that is firing 2.7 joules should be able to fling a 0.48gm bb (Unless you inner barrel is too long). So why do we decide to pay more and get a bucking with a long nub? There is no need. Why put in the extra time to make an R-hop when there is no need? (Unless using ceramic extra heavy bb's).

Personally, I am no longer recommending R-hop or Maple Leaf in most instances as they are not needed. They are overkill and do not improve the performance of most setups.
Anyone else feel the same?
 

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I am a firm believer that there is no advantage or disadvantage when using maple leaf vs r hop. No offense to the guys who swear by rhop; but when you talk about pre cut patches some say they "aren't as good" as a custom made one. Hey I support that if it makes you happy. But I REALLY think that people swear by r hop because they put SO much time into a patch and just want it to pay off lol. In the end this is my opinion and I'm all about whatever works for you. However, I will forever and always share this demonstration I made;

 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I am a firm believer that there is no advantage or disadvantage when using maple leaf vs r hop.
I agree. There is no advantage over Maple Leaf with R-Hop. But I also say that there is no advantage over a standard bucking either unless you are using extra heavy weight bb's in a system that is really meant for lighter bb's.
 

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Yea I can agree there too. I had a Pdi w hold setup with an airsoft pro hop arm, as well as a Nineball bucking with dangerwerx arm. All were accurate for me.

It comes down the the key things mentioned on here before; good barrel finish, good air seal and a stable barrel with good ammo. I do think that certain hop parts work well together based off how the hop mound is designed.

Only think I can see that maple leaf buckings ACTUALLY help with is since the contact patch goes to a point, it could guide it before it goes down the barrel. If that makes sense. I could just be blabbering on here.
 

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So then what is the thought with the Silverback buckings? It uses the protrusion into the window of the barrel to create the backspin. I have been trying to keep to just that instead of spending huge amounts of money on parts that aren't needed.
 

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So then what is the thought with the Silverback buckings? It uses the protrusion into the window of the barrel to create the backspin. I have been trying to keep to just that instead of spending huge amounts of money on parts that aren't needed.
That is literally every modern bucking. Something presses over it to protrude into the window for when the bb passes it.
 

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The reason I believe r-hops/maple leaf buckings are more accurate is because less pressure on the bb = less scratching/deformation. Same reason .43 ceramics are more accurate than .43 plastics.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The reason I believe r-hops/maple leaf buckings are more accurate is because less pressure on the bb = less scratching/deformation
I don't believe putting more pressure on the bb would scratch the inner barrel or deform the bb. One argument that people have used for longer nubs is that it the longer nub needs less downforce and so there is less vibration as the bb goes through the barrel. The issue with this theory is that the bb stabilizes very fast no matter what nub is used. So by the time the bb exits the bb is stable with both a stock nub and a long nub. There are plenty of examples at most fields where a gun has a very short inner barrel but is very accurate. This is because the bb stabilizes over a very, very short distance. So in both instances, the bb should be about as stable as each other.

Same reason .43 ceramics are more accurate than .43 plastics.
Deformation is not really the major difference between the 2 different materials. I doubt that the plastic bb's deform much at all. If any (maybe really small but it would be that small that it would not effect).
The main difference is consistency. Ceramics are consistent. Plastic bb's can have heavy and light spots throughout them while the ceramic bb's have an even weight throughout. Also ceramics are also perfectly round while plastic bb's are not perfectly round.
 

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I think there is merit to both ML/Rhop, but it's in an application that's pretty specific to the type of hop up nub that's used. Simply put, with the right nub, it's possible to apply pressure onto the rhop/ML bucking that forces the BB into the same spot of the patch in an extremely consistent manner. This really only works with BB's at or above 0.28g and only shows advantages in platforms with inconsistent loading force (IE first generation open bolt HPA systems) or platforms with excessive loading force (gen 1 wolverine reaper/AEG's that for some reason have a super heavy tappet plate spring). It's also sometimes helpful to have this sort of setup in a high ROF build. That said, these points are pretty much moot for any bolt gun since the loading force is light and the cycle speed is slow.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
With a standard nub, the bb should rub past the lowest point of the mound each shot making them extremely consistent too. This is the same with every bb weight.
 

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I always see very significant improvement in grouping size when I change a stock bucking to a maple leaf bucking (in AEGs) and slight increase in energy. But then again I never used a prommy purple as it's twice as expensive as a maple bucking.
 

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I've been using Prometheus Purple rubbers on my AEGs for about 3 years, just recently moved to Maple Leaf.

The difference is noticeable.
Solely the fact that I can hop 0.3g+ bbs without shoving half the rubber down the barrel (and losing a fuckton of energy) makes it worth it. Switching from 0.3s to 0.4s in my ARP only involves 2/3 clicks of the hop dial.

My M4 is still running on Prometheus Purples, it's an Ares and their hop chambers have an arm with an integrated tensioner that I can't be arsed to drill out. I also only fire 0.25s out of that thing so having a "better" hop system is a waste of money and time. It does fire consistently with little energy deviation and the groupings are more than acceptable for being 0.25g BBs fired at 0.85J, range is nice at just shy of 55 metres.

This at 1J, where 1tonne said a R-Hop/ML will have the most impact.
 

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Interestingly I've seen people claiming maple leaf AEG rubbers are terrible, ranging from ripping in a few shots or have terrible deviation.

In my personal experience (at least the super Macaron) they are decent.
 

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Interestingly I've seen people claiming maple leaf AEG rubbers are terrible, ranging from ripping in a few shots or have terrible deviation.

In my personal experience (at least the super Macaron) they are decent.
They must have messed something up during installation.

I did rip a MR-Hop when installing it in my AK, but that's because I'm a troglodyte, messed up the reassembly and ended up hammering the inner barrel in place.

Took it all apart, replaced the rubber (thank god I bought 5 spare ones), reassembled the proper way, and now it's perfect. It even upped my output (0.1J not much but still nice to have)..

Maple Leaf did have issues with some batches of their rubbers though, specifically the GBB/VSR Autobots, don't know if other models had the same issues tho.
 
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@1tonne bbs definetely get scratched from scraping on the inner barrel under the hopup. There's always a bunch of bb residue under the hopup even after just like 5 shots. I haven't actually tested other rubbers, but I'm assuming that causes inconsistent bb surfaces. This means less consistent surface compared to ceramics which have more consistent surface/weight distribution as well as hard enough surfaces to not get scratched under the hopup.
 

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I'll agree with this. The only advantage I see with ML/Rhop and similar rubbers over a typical nub is the concave shaping of the hop mound. That shaping when used in conjunction with a proper nub and barrel window leads to very consistent results.

That's not to say you couldn't achieve the same consistency with an old school mound nub bucking, it'll just take a little more care when assembling and choosing parts.

As far as scratching plastic bbs when firing and the effects of that on consistency vs ceramic? I think MagicMarkers analysis has shown there's a significant enough difference between the two materials when it comes to consistency that would more than explain the accuracy and consistency differences between the two materials without us guessing and speculating on how much the barrel (maybe) scratching a plastic bb will effect it.

Personally I've never seen the need or desire to spend real steel ammo prices on ceramic bbs for a performance gain that I likely will never be able to reliably measure.
 

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I'm basing my speculation on magic markers comparison of .43 ceramics vs regular .43 where he achieved noticeable better groupings.
 

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That is literally every modern bucking. Something presses over it to protrude into the window for when the bb passes it.
The Silverback SRS buckings differ from the traditional bucking in the fact that rather than a single nub protruding into the barrel space you have a concave patch that attaches to the bucking and the nub is rounded as well to mimic an R Hop without actually modifying the barrel.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 · (Edited)
I'm basing my speculation on magic markers comparison of .43 ceramics vs regular .43 where he achieved noticeable better groupings.
That would be because of the consistency of the ceramics.

That's not to say you couldn't achieve the same consistency with an old school mound nub bucking, it'll just take a little more care when assembling and choosing parts.
With both stock bucking and Maple Leaf, I get similar results. Especially with BASR's.

I always see very significant improvement in grouping size when I change a stock bucking to a maple leaf bucking (in AEGs) and slight increase in energy.
This is an advantage of Maple Leaf or R-hop. It does become easier to create that increase in energy with an AEG the more hopup that is applied. This happens more with shorter barreled guns. This increase in FPS could be the reason it seems more accurate. So it is not the mound that makes it more accurate but the fact the that the mound can help create extra energy. Higher fps rifles are normally more accurate. But then if you make a rifle of the same fps (Measured with the hopup set), with a stock bucking, you will see that it is just as accurate. So the increase in energy can make it a little more accurate.
So in AEG's I agree that there is a good reason to use a Maple Leaf. It can increase energy with more hopup. The easier it is to get your desired energy, the less stress on the gearbox and therefore more RPS.

But this increase in BASR's is the same with both Maple Leaf/Rhop and stock buckings. So no advantage. With BASR's there is no difference. Both the Stock bucking and Maple Leaf will increase in energy the more hop you apply. So why on this forum, a sniper forum, do we recommend R-Hop and Maple Leaf for bolties?
 
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