[Rambolleja]

Hello,

Basically, I would like to ask for the opinion of snipers regarding my problem: I have a tuned VSR10 some info of the replica:

0.20 BB; 570 fps; 2.99 J
0.48 BB; 380 fps; 3.23 J
(we have 3,3J /600 Fps with 0.20 bb limit)
Barrel length: 375 mm
Barrel diameter: 6.01
Compression: 3.4 (V cylinder = 36100mm^3 / V pipe = 10600mm^3)
Hop bucking: Maple Leaf MR hop 70°
Hopup arm-nub: Unique, concave as shown in the picture (it pushes the bucking on 2 side edges)
TDC screw adjuster
Original VSR chamber
I use it with a 0.48 BLS BB

With the current config, I can easily hit a terget from 80-85m, (even from further away, by aiming above), my problem is the BB trajectory. The trajectory of the BB is currently (approximately) according to the attached diagram, so I can only estimate the intermediate distances and aim downwards to correct the shot. So now, the problem is that the BB rises after about 20 meters from the place of the shot, and it goes even higher when I add more hop. My goal would be to choose the correct hop bucking and/or BB mass that would allow a flat trajectory at the beginning, a slightly rising and then descending trajectory towards the end, with a long shooting range (picture). What is your thoughts about this, could you recommend a must have hop bucking? Maybe I should try a lighter BB?

Anyway, I've already reviewed scientific, magic-level theories, videos, etc., about the Magnus effect, but this phenomenon is still a big question mark, how can you "manipulate" the backspin to reach a flat trajectory, which rises a little at the end, while the current one is a continuously rising and dropping?

Thanks for the tips in advance!

 

[Masada]

Backspin is backspin. You can't change the rate at which it accelerates (or decelerates) once it leaves the barrel. The difference in trajectories you show normally comes from bb velocity. Lighter weight bbs with higher velocity typically show the second flight path you have, whereas heavier will tend to be closer to an arc. You could use lighter bbs, however there are so many more downsides that it just isn't worth it. You're better off learning your arc and ranging. Works the same way with real rifles too.

 

[SiliconeSword]

You may want to look at a bucking with a longer patch and a different material, like a 2021 Maple Leaf Autobot in 70° or 80°.
I know it doesn't make sense, but I swear that silicone and urethane R-hops and the new ML buckings give a different trajectory compared to an old bucking like a Madbull red, even with the same BB weight and power.
Really not sure why since it doesn't make any sense, but I'm pretty sure I'm not just seeing things.

 

[Rambolleja]

Backspin is backspin. You can't change the rate at which it accelerates (or decelerates) once it leaves the barrel. The difference in trajectories you show normally comes from bb velocity. Lighter weight bbs with higher velocity typically show the second flight path you have, whereas heavier will tend to be closer to an arc. You could use lighter bbs, however there are so many more downsides that it just isn't worth it. You're better off learning your arc and ranging. Works the same way with real rifles too.

Thank you for the info dude, I see your point, but I've seen a sniper rifle shooting for ~90m with a flat path with 0,49 bb... The guy told me it's a secret what's inside the chamber But yea, I will learn my curve, and use the mildot to estimate the range of my target

 

[Rambolleja]

You may want to look at a bucking with a longer patch and a different material, like a 2021 Maple Leaf Autobot in 70° or 80°.
I know it doesn't make sense, but I swear that silicone and urethane R-hops and the new ML buckings give a different trajectory compared to an old bucking like a Madbull red, even with the same BB weight and power.
Really not sure why since it doesn't make any sense, but I'm pretty sure I'm not just seeing things.

I've read some positive review about them, will definitely try them out as part of an experiment, will test 5-6 buckings Yes, this topic became a "magic" instead of science for me, I just have to try them out.

 

[RonSwanson]

You may want to look at a bucking with a longer patch and a different material, like a 2021 Maple Leaf Autobot in 70° or 80°.
I know it doesn't make sense, but I swear that silicone and urethane R-hops and the new ML buckings give a different trajectory compared to an old bucking like a Madbull red, even with the same BB weight and power.
Really not sure why since it doesn't make any sense, but I'm pretty sure I'm not just seeing things.

Think a good theory is that they grip more so need less hop pressure to get the same hop effect, less disturbance on the BB and air flow.

 

[Masada]

Thank you for the info dude, I see your point, but I've seen a sniper rifle shooting for ~90m with a flat path with 0,49 bb... The guy told me it's a secret what's inside the chamber But yea, I will learn my curve, and use the mildot to estimate the range of my target

Easy explanation could be that he was shooting with more energy that you have been testing with. Realistically, there's no magic sauce in hop up. It just needs to be consistent and apply adequate backspin to lift the bb. Once that bb leaves the barrel it's just down to how much energy it carries and the wind.

 

[Sodium]

Think about the information acting on the bb as it flies. It has forward velocity, backspin, drag, and gravity. As it flies straight* out of the barrel, it will slowly travel down because of gravity*. It flies faster at the start, so there's less time for the backspin* to push it up, hence you get a flatter path at the initial exit. The bb then drastically gets slowed down by drag*, but the drag doesn't nearly have the same effect on the spin, meaning that the spin remains constant while the forward velocity decreases. What this would look like is a sharp upward curve towards the latter half/third of it's flight, as it travels forward slower up but just as fast. Hence, you should always be getting that blue flight path anyways. Unless your barrel is angled up it literally has to go straight forward for a bit as it exits the barrel straight forward.

I have never shot a rifle that, when the hop was properly set (not too much) didn't have that second flight path. I've probably used every bucking you can get your hands on, and some you cant. If your rifle is shooting like path 1, try lowering your hop or changing your setting on the scope.

One important point is that you should always judge flight path by eye, not through the scope. Your scope can play tons of tricks on you.

 

[Rambolleja]

Think about the information acting on the bb as it flies. It has forward velocity, backspin, drag, and gravity. As it flies straight* out of the barrel, it will slowly travel down because of gravity*. It flies faster at the start, so there's less time for the backspin* to push it up, hence you get a flatter path at the initial exit. The bb then drastically gets slowed down by drag*, but the drag doesn't nearly have the same effect on the spin, meaning that the spin remains constant while the forward velocity decreases. What this would look like is a sharp upward curve towards the latter half/third of it's flight, as it travels forward slower up but just as fast. Hence, you should always be getting that blue flight path anyways. Unless your barrel is angled up it literally has to go straight forward for a bit as it exits the barrel straight forward.

I have never shot a rifle that, when the hop was properly set (not too much) didn't have that second flight path. I've probably used every bucking you can get your hands on, and some you cant. If your rifle is shooting like path 1, try lowering your hop or changing your setting on the scope.

One important point is that you should always judge flight path by eye, not through the scope. Your scope can play tons of tricks on you.

I totally understand your saying, and the phisics behind the movement over time, Got a lot of reply on another platforms about my question, many says the hop is too much, that could be true. My goal is to maxilamize range, because at our field, we need range. So yes, it might be the problem, but sometimes I see players shooting almost straight with their rifles, for over 80-90 meters like on the second graph. I also understand that the scope can play tricks on me Got many advices, and tips what buckings should I try next, I think I will have to do a big bucking experiment...

 

[E-11]

in my opinion your trajectory has two possible reasons. First as stated above too much spin. This is easy to find out.
Second could be to little spin: if your barrel is angled a little upwards without spin, you would get a curve as shown. To eliminate this cause run a test where the barrel is absolutely horizontal and check, if the BB still rises higher than the barrel. If yes, reduce the spin, if not: increase spin. Just my two cent..., hope that helps

 

[dominik549]

Had the same problem, my field does not have an FPS limit (its a huge field) but we respect the distances u take the shots from.

So my solution was just adding more FPS but in ur case i would suggest adjusting ur scope with shims so that it is slanted (it helped me first time with that problem.) but other than that try out 0.50g or if you have money go even heavier if you can find some on the market these days

 

[Plazmaburn]

I'm surprised no one commented on your hop arm. "Fang" style arms do not work all that well with maple leaf buckings (or rhops for that matter).

I would use a more standard concave style nub or SiliconeSword nub. (Link is in his signature)

 

[Crius]

I've seen a sniper rifle shooting for ~90m with a flat path with 0,49 bb...

Are you sure it was 90m?
I strongly doubt that a rifle ~550ft/sec can do this. I 've never seen a flat bb(0.48gr-0.5gr) trajectory at these distances(90m) & above 80m.

Quite a few times I was close and heard claims like these <<I can shot 100m, 120m, 90m like laser...>> And when engagements started, those guys should shoot 3-4 bbs to hit a target much closer, ~60m, and many missed too.
When you hear such claims be cautious. Reality is not what we see in videos or hear from player's "big" claims...

 

[SiliconeSword]

I'd feel pretty safe with 75m, maybe 80m, but 90m sounds a little generous imo.

 

[Plazmaburn]

75 to 80 is about the max for absolute straight shots with conventional weight bbs. "Lazorz". You can push that with ceramics, but not by much.

When I hear "but this video!" I discount everything they say. 1. You can't tell distances in videos. 2. You don't know what kind of digital fuckery may have been used on it. 3. People can't judge distance all that well in airsoft to begin with, follow that up with most people can't judge distance in a scope either. Especially at the ranges we use.

Facts.

 

[Blind Sniper]

Let me mf tell you HOW MUCH mfs exaggerate the distances of the shots they make with their airsoft guns. When you take a good range finder, range an object that +/- 100 yards, and then shoot your airsoft gun at it; you’ll realize it’s pretty far to be slinging a bb at. Like Plaz said videos don’t even mean anything really when you aren’t able to judge the distance. Let alone people making distance claims in Facebook groups.

 

[Masada]

I’ve heard so many claims of crazy range out of peoples guns in my years of airsoft that I normally divide whatever claim by half. Pretty much everyone thinks they are shooting farther than they actually are and then will complain about people not calling their hits when in reality their shots are landing 20 yards short.

Bring a rangefinder (and actually use it), then you’re allowed to make claims.

 

[SiliconeSword]

You can shoot most any gun 100m, and most any sniper 130m, but it's all a matter of hitting something smaller than a building, with a reasonable amount of shots.

I own a rangefinder, but after 4 years of owning it I am accurate to 10m under 100m, and 20m under 200m, which gives me a good rough estimate for my general things. I can also guess the size of things within 15 thousandths of an inch more times than not, after nearly a decade using a lathe and it's corresponding measuring tools, but it doesn't stop me from measuring things.

 

[Blind Sniper]

Having a scope cam is nice too. So many times I used to think I was hitting a lot of people far away. Then when I get home and plugged the footage into my computer; I realize a lot of my shots are falling short.

 

[Plazmaburn]

I would usually be hitting a twig or something 2 to 3 feet in front of them and would toss the bb like I hit them. Which would result in me thinking they are cheating and shoot them in the face.