Why 6/8mm?

16962 Views 62 Replies 10 Participants Last post by Cheese Man, Jul 7, 2011

bobgengeskahn

Discussion Starter · Jun 23, 2011

Why has airsoft stuck to the 6/8mm (hardley 8mm anymore) platforms? Is it to preserve safe MEDs? Is it because if we went bigger there would be too much mass? Or is it just because the industry has decided that for us?

I have been looking into custom BB designs for a project and designing custom 6mm BBs is just damn small. Then I contemplated going to 8mm. Most recently I have been thinking about going as large as ~10mm (0.40cal. to be exact). From varous topics I have read I can see a few problems/hesitations for going so large, the main concern most likely being that increased mass = increased MED/more safety concerns.

However, I would pose that for a sniper role, since our MED is longer anyway; a slightly larger round at the heavier range of existing BBs (0.4 - 0.5) would be able to be fired at a lower FPS with greater stability resulting in better range and increased accuracy. Wheter it would be custom 8mm rounds or going as large as what I am thinking I don't know, but its just a thought.

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inthetallgrass

· #21 · Jun 23, 2011

Ho yeah I realized that straight away. I was just saying in case others didn't and took the dimpled theory into the spotlight again.

bobgengeskahn

Discussion Starter · #22 · Jun 23, 2011

inthetallgrass said:
bobgengeskahn said:

That is the idea... however, I have a few modifications in mind for our applications. I'd like to try a boat tailed version and a concave version with a flared end similar to a pellet... this is all going to depend on when I can get a test platform set up.

Click to expand...

So like a blade BB. Also don't start with the dimpled BB's again.

Yes, no more dimpled BBs. I believe Beck was trying to pull our chains

And yes again, similar to the blade. My whole design process has been to start with something along those lines and work to try to tackle some of the other design problems that I see with the blade to come up with prototype ideas and hopefully boil it down to 3-5 models and test them on a set barrel platform.
There area a few design parameters that I am trying to keep in mind with them, ease of machining is a big one, as well as injection molding. Right now I am debating the size issue (obviously :

). However, finding precision tube down to +/- 0.001mm or even +/- 0.01mm is near impossible, which means I many be stuck with a standard airsoft barrel :-/. Sad because I have a feeling that the flared end idea would work best... but at only 6mm it will be hard to get the fins to have enough surface area to be effective, and making them bigger would break the "easy to machine" contingent.

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sniperninja

· #23 · Jun 23, 2011

I was doing a *facepalm* when I saw the dimpled bbs post. Then I saw it was a joke lol. Everybody keeps making threads about new bbs on various forums, but WE need to do this already! Not only would it bring fame to ASF, but we could revolutionize the world of airsoft snipers, make some money, and get your name out there. Why dont I have money!?!?!?

bobgengeskahn

Discussion Starter · #24 · Jun 23, 2011

Gotta spend money to make money

... however this doesn't count when its money spent on smokes... I still cant figure that one out...

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inthetallgrass

· #25 · Jun 23, 2011

bobgengeskahn said:
Gotta spend money to make money ... however this doesn't count when its money spent on smokes... I still cant figure that one out...

Leave the jokes for the lounge *Really serious mod (Not that there is any here - all the mods on ASF are cool)

The 6mm flared blade bb obviously had some merit if it went after the alpha stage and were actually sold. The only problem is hop-up being less effective. We could make a BB with actual wings like a dart. - Plastic and superglue?

Also for a really quiet and consistent shot - a breech loading weapon. As in charge it and then put the bb in the top? Anyone thought of that?

bobgengeskahn

Discussion Starter · #26 · Jun 23, 2011

Straight wings wouldn't be a problem really if you wanted to make an injection mold for BBs, twisted wings are where it gets tricky and really brings the advantage of going beyond 6mm just to get the surface area. The only problem with straight wings is that unless there is lift involved, the gain in range is minimal at this scale, although consistency would probably be very good. If you were to make the body a tear-drop you could gain some lifting capability, but not a whole lot; then you make the "air foil" even more dramatic to get more lift, but then you're stuck trying to make sure the rounds feed consistently "upright".

IMO creating a spin with the proper design is the way to go at this scale.

inthetallgrass

· #27 · Jun 23, 2011

You'd just have to eliminate the hop-up so you'll have to make up for lost range with power.

furrycowthingy

· #28 · Jun 23, 2011

BeckLR1 said:
A heavier round fired slower would be great but you would be arc-ing it to the target.

But that would make people have to use the Mils on a scope and it would make you actually somewhat "calculate" a shot. The amount of attention payed to wind and distance would be greatly increased.

And having spotter in airsoft would be justified to all of those who think they are unnecessary.

I would switch to this BB in a heart beat. Just to see how it would turn out.

Also, dimpling it would greatly increase range and stability as Beck said. Now how about rifling it too? Something minimal though, something like a 1/5 barrel twist, not to much.

bobgengeskahn

Discussion Starter · #29 · Jun 23, 2011

furrycowthingy said:
BeckLR1 said:

A heavier round fired slower would be great but you would be arc-ing it to the target.

Click to expand...

But that would make people have to use the Mils on a scope and it would make you actually somewhat "calculate" a shot. The amount of attention payed to wind and distance would be greatly increased.

And having spotter in airsoft would be justified to all of those who think they are unnecessary.

I would switch to this BB in a heart beat. Just to see how it would turn out.

Also, dimpling it would greatly increase range and stability as Beck said. Now how about rifling it too? Something minimal though, something like a 1/5 barrel twist, not to much.

Please tell me you're joking about the dimpling... ???

Also, the idea that I'm trying to run with here would be rifling or 'winging' the round itself to spin upon exiting... but if someone wants to tackle rifling the actual barrel I'd say go for it. I just decided that dealing with the BB design would be too difficult/impractical trying to maintain an air seal in addition to using a material soft enough to take the rifling. Or you could nub the round and have them travel though the rifling (I forget what this technique is called, but I know it's used in big bore artillery), but again you have seal issues and what-not.

As far as switching over goes... if I get stuck with 6 or even 8mm barrels I wouldn't mind sending some off to see what people think of them....

furrycowthingy

· #30 · Jun 23, 2011

Yeah, I would( if I had the resources) work on a barrel that twists so it would give it more spin. Now the problem with that would be taking precise measurements and fine tools to do it. But once it is done, it could( In theory ) work on all calibers of BBs. Wether it be 6mm, 8mm, or even a 10mm.

I just wish things didn't cost to damn much.

And Bob, if you do complete this project. I would definitely volenteer to test them. I really am getting sick of every one shooting the same round. Sniping has realism already, but not enough for my taste.

sniperninja

· #31 · Jun 24, 2011

I would volunteer to test as well. And I agree that things are way to expensive these days...

bobgengeskahn

Discussion Starter · #32 · Jun 24, 2011

I am going to talk to some of my ME friends while they are home from school and see if they can get me info/access on injection molding tech. and see what it would take to try and make at least a single mold, hopefully in the next week or so. Doing one at a time will be painful, but hopefully it'll save some cost until I can find a suitable design. Still debating in theory on if it should be boat tailed or if it should be flared like a blow dart.

At the very least Ill try to mock up some 3D sketches and see what ya'll think.

furrycowthingy

· #33 · Jun 24, 2011

Please do man, I am really interested to see how this is going to work.

inthetallgrass

· #34 · Jun 24, 2011

Yeah man that would be awesome.

MGunner

· #35 · Jun 24, 2011

bobgengeskahn said:
I am going to talk to some of my ME friends while they are home from school and see if they can get me info/access on injection molding tech. and see what it would take to try and make at least a single mold, hopefully in the next week or so. Doing one at a time will be painful, but hopefully it'll save some cost until I can find a suitable design. Still debating in theory on if it should be boat tailed or if it should be flared like a blow dart.

At the very least Ill try to mock up some 3D sketches and see what ya'll think.

ME, as in Maine? Or is that a typo?

I think boat tail, mostly because it work very well with match grade RS bullets.

bobgengeskahn

Discussion Starter · #36 · Jun 24, 2011

ME as in Mechanical Engineering.

I think boat tail, mostly because it work very well with match grade RS bullets.

And this is my thinking for trying it, however the seal that is created in RS vs. the 'seal' (or lack of) that is created in airsoft may cause an unacceptable bleed of pressure. The other concern I have with a boat tail would be exposing the fins to the air flow from the cylinder (planning for a HPA set up) would cause the BB to rotate counter to the intended spin once it leaves the barrel. I may just be over emphasizing the effect in my head... all the more reason to test

On a slightly more serious note, I have been looking all day and have yet to find a way to build an acceptable mold. I have mainly been looking into injection molding and some rapid prototyping techniques. Anyone have any ideas for an accurate cheap way to cast things?

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sniperninja

· #37 · Jun 24, 2011

Silicon molds. They work very well, and you can do it at home.

bobgengeskahn

Discussion Starter · #38 · Jun 24, 2011

They wouldn't melt or deform? The silicone molds I have typically seen are very soft and would (I imagine) be prone to bloating when filled. Not particularly desirable in something where the tolerances are 0.001"

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sniperninja

· #39 · Jun 24, 2011

They have plastics that don't need heat, you just mix and pour it into the mold.

furrycowthingy

· #40 · Jun 25, 2011

Can you share the names of these plastics? Might it be a type of polymer maybe?

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