[whalesmash]

Gun Gamers did do a test related to this, though their test platform was with a standard AEG that is definitely not volume matched. Their testing also only reached out to 150 feet, so that isn't quite reaching the higher limits of range (and also the more interesting part that we would like to see). It's important to note that they only measured at their specified joule level with 0.2g bb's rather than the exact same joule level with each respective weight, so this does invalidate the results as far as I am concerned, though as this is how most fields chrono, that's probably why they chose to chrono with 0.2g. I'd only consider their 0.2, 0.25, 0.28, and 0.32g with the 1 joule gun to be accurate. I would not use the 1.6 joule rifle results or the 0.4g results as the 1.6j platform has too much velocity discrepancy (probably not volume matched), and the 0.4g results did not have the hop up properly set. Here's a link to their results:

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CvFN-qxnQQhvGCLTwx4KLeJyA1T5_8ZZ

 

[Jeppe]

Rifle is fine.

Like I said, it's optimized for .43g. If I shortened the barrel then .5g may make more sense from a muzzle energy perspective. However, my maximum range would not increase without increasing the power of the rifle (unless I was willing to make the concessions I mentioned in my previous post).

No really dude it's probably not! It's very common to have hopup setups "peak" at .36 to .43 if they are not installed correctly! Especially concave nubs tilting on window edges. The fact that you say you get decreased range is a good indicator of this.

Unless you're running a light piston, you shouldn't see a significant dip going from .43 to .50, especially with a short VSR.
When i was in UK, i ran .43 - .50 back and forth in a 555mm 2,6J VSR. Shooting .50 was no issue muzzle energy or hopup wise.

Same thing goes for other VSR's i build for people. 3J Gspecs ("500fps 0.20") was common as well, which is perfectly fine for .50 (though i recommend white .48).

Currently i shoot this thing:

500mm barrel with 45g piston on ASP M160. It tops out at 132m/s with a .48. It doesn't shoot any harder with .43.

 

[AccurateDMD]

It's an AA chamber, Stalker Panthera nub, ML bucking. Piston is the Zero trigger orange piston. I run a 430mm barrel which is optimal for .43g on the VSR system. Hop up is only on 2.25 turns to get flat flight with a .43g. There is plenty left, so it is not "peaking".

There is nothing wrong with the install. No nubs sitting on the window. If there were I wouldn't be getting the groupings I get which you can find in the Nub thread in the VSR forum.

I tear my gun down all the time to run testing of various parts. But please, be my guest to continue making assumptions about a rifle you don't have sitting in front of you and haven't shot.

 

[Leetworld]

What would be interesting for me to see would be testing of velocities at the muzzle and at various distances downrange. This way you could really see how much energy is maintained at different weights.

I'm really interested in this too. In the end I figured I might try exactly this, chrono at varying distances and I hope numbers will be logical, so you could make a progressive or whatever graph to guess those numbers further downrange.
Real firearm "wire" chronos are big, easy enough to pass a bb thru it at all airsoft ranges, but one would have to have it

Jeppe, what you chrono with 0.2g and that gun?

Edit: also somebody made a point about bb taking time to get there, I stuck with 0.4 for a long time only for that reason, with 0.4 130m/s and 0.45 122m/s, all dandy when shooting still targets but if it's moving those 8m/s difference (which is a lot already) expands a lot more over the range

 

[Jeppe]

It's an AA chamber, Stalker Panthera nub, ML bucking. Piston is the Zero trigger orange piston. I run a 430mm barrel which is optimal for .43g on the VSR system. Hop up is only on 2.25 turns to get flat flight with a .43g. There is plenty left, so it is not "peaking".

There is nothing wrong with the install. No nubs sitting on the window. If there were I wouldn't be getting the groupings I get which you can find in the Nub thread in the VSR forum.

I tear my gun down all the time to run testing of various parts. But please, be my guest to continue making assumptions about a rifle you don't have sitting in front of you and haven't shot.

Try this:
Measure 0.43 joule with hop set for 0.43 flat
Measure 0.43 joule with hop set for 0.50 flat

If you get energy drop, your hopup is peaking (and drops sharply generally) before 0.50.

But there are other factors.
Your piston is super light.
Try wrapping some golfers lead tape on it. It'll be fine at your energy levels. 45gr total weight should be a good start. I would do this regardless of shooting .43 or .50 in your case.

Leetworld: I don't chrono it on 0.20 so i wouldn't know.

 

[1tonne]

If he is losing energy with the 0.5gm compared to the 0.43gm it is most likely because the barrel is slightly too long for the volume of air in the cylinder.


Jeppe. I have noticed that you often disregard cylinder to barrel ratios. Why? Cylinder to barrel ratios will give you the most energy.

 

[AccurateDMD]

I'm not currently willing to mess with my piston weight, as I haven't seen definitive testing to prove it makes a large difference unless you are building a joule creep rifle with a short barrel.

Once I finish the ML CJ testing I may pick up a WASP piston if I feel like paying the shipping from Europe for a single part. Haven't decided yet.

As for testing with a chrono and different weights, I did it months ago.

.4 2.7J
.43 2.9J
.45 2.7J
.5 2.4-2.5J

The hop up isn't "peaking". The C:B ratio just isn't set up for a weight heavier than .43g. If I shortened the barrel, the .45g and .5g would give me higher Joules than the .43g and lower. However, it is highly unlikely either would meet or exceed the 2.9J I'm currently getting with .43g unless I changed the spring to a more powerful one.

 

[Jeppe]

It's super easy and non-permanent to throw lead tape on a piston. Just go and try it. Increase total weight to 45g. Sounds better and punches a .50 better, especially with some hopup setups. Easy to buy a roll here:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=golfers+lead+tape

I see what you listed.

I bet you chronoed different weights instead of different hopup settings on the same weight.

Look:

Measure 0.43 joule with hop set for 0.43 flat
Measure 0.43 joule with hop set for 0.50 flat

Boom. Right there. That's what i mean.

Put 0.50 in. Dial hopup. Take 0.50 bb's out. Put 0.43 in. Shoot through chrono.
If you get energy drop, your hopup is peaking (and drops sharply generally) before 0.50.

So i went and tested a gspec i have laying around.

Spec: 430mm EDGI 6,01, 45g piston, monster 75 bucking, concave nub

0,43, hop 0,43: 2,44J
0,50, hop 0,43: 2,40J
0,43, hop 0,50: 2,39J
0,50, hop 0,50: 2,36J

As you can see, i don't have any issues with a heavy BB in this setup. There is next to no disparity between 0.43 and 0.50 on a pure weight change, and the 0,04J drop from 0.43 hop setting to 0.50 hop setting can be reasonably explained by blowby etc.

Also with a heavier spring or an rhop patch, less pressure lock would be incurred and less blowby would be incurred.

 

[1tonne]

It's super easy and non-permanent to throw lead tape on a piston. Just go and try it. Increase total weight to 45g. Sounds better and punches a .50 better

Adding weight does not give more "Punch". Adding weight slows the piston down giving less energy. What it does do is give a larger variation between a lighter bb and the heavy bb.

 

[AccurateDMD]

No... No boom. I always chrono with the hop up set for flat flight for the weight I'm testing. "Game ready" is how I like to put it. Please stop making assumptions.

And (for the third time?) I'm not currently interested in changing the piston weight, for various reasons, not the least of which is I'm currently testing different barrels.

 

[wyz2285]

My bet is on your setup is just inefficient with lighter bbs. But hey if you say you have a toned system that is supposed to deliver a consistent power (spring and air seal) but yet ignore the increase of weight...
Adding weight to the piston never, ever increase the potential energy in the system (the spring), the slower speed of the piston simply make it less efficient with lighter bbs.
You two need to share the spring power rating and barrel length and bore if any before compare the energy output but this is already off topic.

 

[MagicMarker]

.07g isn't much from the perspective of most firearms. But with airsoft you're talking about a spring powered air gun that has to stay at relatively low velocities.
[...]
What would be interesting for me to see would be testing of velocities at the muzzle and at various distances downrange. This way you could really see how much energy is maintained at different weights.
But you would have to have a hell of a rifle to make that happen with most chronographs, so it is unlikely anyone will be able to run those kinds of tests in the near future. I suppose one could aim at a pressure pad but it would have to be capable of measuring relatively low amounts of force to a high degree of accuracy.

$5 to the "I compared airsoft to real steel." jar :yup:

I have one of the following and I feel like it wouldn't really be hard to get results fairly far down range. I mean we shoot laser accurater for a while, and after a certain point, you only need to make a few in the general vicinity before one gets picked up by the chrono:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HTN5DTE/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00
But also on this note...

Gun Gamers did do a test related to this, though their test platform was with a standard AEG that is definitely not volume matched. Their testing also only reached out to 150 feet, so that isn't quite reaching the higher limits of range (and also the more interesting part that we would like to see). It's important to note that they only measured at their specified joule level with 0.2g bb's rather than the exact same joule level with each respective weight, so this does invalidate the results as far as I am concerned, though as this is how most fields chrono, that's probably why they chose to chrono with 0.2g. I'd only consider their 0.2, 0.25, 0.28, and 0.32g with the 1 joule gun to be accurate. I would not use the 1.6 joule rifle results or the 0.4g results as the 1.6j platform has too much velocity discrepancy (probably not volume matched), and the 0.4g results did not have the hop up properly set. Here's a link to their results:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1CvFN-qxnQQhvGCLTwx4KLeJyA1T5_8ZZ

Y'all forgetting about this?
ATP - Closing Remarks
Also I have some app called Airsoft Ballistics which, although I have no idea the accuracy, can predict and graph a BBs trajectory based on weight, initial speed, initial elevation, hop up, and even angle.

 

[Leetworld]

I have one of the following

I was talking about this! Do you have some access to indoor range?
Do it!

 

[MagicMarker]

I was talking about this! Do you have some access to indoor range?
Do it!

There are indoor ranges within reasonable distance of me, yes- though I'm not sure the logistics of getting in there privately to set up a chrono for this I'll have to ask. I did consider indoor ranges already for the BB analysis shooting test, but unless the pictures are fooling me, it doesn't look like any of these places actually offer long ranges- and I wasn't really motivated to test energy at distances because it seemed it was already a known topic, discernible by math alone. However the more I think about it, I feel like I must be able to find an indoor range long enough to just view groupings larger than a BB's diameter
I will start planning for this after I acquire the last few BLS BBs I've yet to personally analyse (BIO .40g, non-BIO .43, .45, and .48).

 

[Zero Roaster]

I have an unofficial indoor range with 300 ft of clear space when the machines are out. I must say it's fantastic for testing under controlled conditions. Sometimes we'll even change the speed of the ceiling fans to create 'wind'. The ceiling is about 30-40 feet high as well so it's very much open space. On a day like today where outside temperatures are favourable, even the HVAC isn't running so the air is quite still. Perfect for long range testing. Too bad you live so far!!!

When I stand at one end looking at that tiny little circle way down there I truly get the feeling most people have no idea what a hundred yards really is. hehehehe

 

[Leetworld]

I have couple hangars at my disposal but max 40~m wall to wall. Good for setting up scope and etc. I will try the distance energy drop test with standard airsoft chrono as far as I could hit it when I’ll have time

 

[MagicMarker]

I have an unofficial indoor range with 300 ft of clear space when the machines are out. I must say it's fantastic for testing under controlled conditions. Sometimes we'll even change the speed of the ceiling fans to create 'wind'. The ceiling is about 30-40 feet high as well so it's very much open space. On a day like today where outside temperatures are favourable, even the HVAC isn't running so the air is quite still. Perfect for long range testing. Too bad you live so far!!!

When I stand at one end looking at that tiny little circle way down there I truly get the feeling most people have no idea what a hundred yards really is. hehehehe

Ugh, I envy you so much! This is the absolute dream! I live in an apartment in a fairly populated area...

I have couple hangars at my disposal but max 40~m wall to wall. Good for setting up scope and etc. I will try the distance energy drop test with standard airsoft chrono as far as I could hit it when I'll have time

Just make sure you have a camera running on it- I want to see you blow the LCD off your chrono :hehe:
But really if you zero your scope to be parallel to your bore at the 40m, you could actually use the scope to aim a static height above the chrono at all ranges, which might help.

 

[Leetworld]

Ugh, I envy you so much! This is the absolute dream! I live in an apartment in a fairly populated area...

Just make sure you have a camera running on it- I want to see you blow the LCD off your chrono :hehe:
But really if you zero your scope to be parallel to your bore at the 40m, you could actually use the scope to aim a static height above the chrono at all ranges, which might help.

I was thinking setting chrono at an angle downwards to make it easier to hit. Also 5min fab work to make a metal plate to cover all but the hole 🤷♂

 

[Zero Roaster]

Use lexan...you'll still be able to see the numbers through it.

Mr. Marker, there are certainly advantages to working in an industrial environment. There's a couple of us here who are big into airsoft so this is an after hours test facility. hehehehe. As for living in an apartment, I feel your angst, brother. We did for a few years between selling our business in the foothills and relocating to a small town on the other side of the city...there's nothing like big sky and fresh cow poop.

 

[MagicMarker]

Kicking Mustang .48g BBs have been added! Everyone say "Thank you Graham!" (HickSniper).
See the numbers for yourselves, but these performed pretty great- honestly all these recent heavyweights have been showing promising numbers. I've also yet to see any bubbles in these BBs. Faring similarly to BLS .50s, they are a much lighter grey, with slightly better weight consistency and slightly worse shape consistency- they might be your top pick!

By the way I'm working on getting some dynamic data visualizations going so you can better grasp the performance of newer additions...