I still use 9Balls in my VSR's and only r-hop my 0.69 guns. I dissuade the use of r-hops in pretty much anything else.

AEG/HPA, I am still a prommy purple kinda guy.


Right there with ya.

 

I am a firm believer that there is no advantage or disadvantage when using maple leaf vs r hop. No offense to the guys who swear by rhop; but when you talk about pre cut patches some say they "aren't as good" as a custom made one. Hey I support that if it makes you happy. But I REALLY think that people swear by r hop because they put SO much time into a patch and just want it to pay off lol. In the end this is my opinion and I'm all about whatever works for you. However, I will forever and always share this demonstration I made;

 

I am a firm believer that there is no advantage or disadvantage when using maple leaf vs r hop.

I agree. There is no advantage over Maple Leaf with R-Hop. But I also say that there is no advantage over a standard bucking either unless you are using extra heavy weight bb's in a system that is really meant for lighter bb's.

 

Yea I can agree there too. I had a Pdi w hold setup with an airsoft pro hop arm, as well as a Nineball bucking with dangerwerx arm. All were accurate for me.

It comes down the the key things mentioned on here before; good barrel finish, good air seal and a stable barrel with good ammo. I do think that certain hop parts work well together based off how the hop mound is designed.

Only think I can see that maple leaf buckings ACTUALLY help with is since the contact patch goes to a point, it could guide it before it goes down the barrel. If that makes sense. I could just be blabbering on here.

 

So then what is the thought with the Silverback buckings? It uses the protrusion into the window of the barrel to create the backspin. I have been trying to keep to just that instead of spending huge amounts of money on parts that aren't needed.

 

That is literally every modern bucking. Something presses over it to protrude into the window for when the bb passes it.

 

The reason I believe r-hops/maple leaf buckings are more accurate is because less pressure on the bb = less scratching/deformation. Same reason .43 ceramics are more accurate than .43 plastics.

 

The reason I believe r-hops/maple leaf buckings are more accurate is because less pressure on the bb = less scratching/deformation

I don't believe putting more pressure on the bb would scratch the inner barrel or deform the bb. One argument that people have used for longer nubs is that it the longer nub needs less downforce and so there is less vibration as the bb goes through the barrel. The issue with this theory is that the bb stabilizes very fast no matter what nub is used. So by the time the bb exits the bb is stable with both a stock nub and a long nub. There are plenty of examples at most fields where a gun has a very short inner barrel but is very accurate. This is because the bb stabilizes over a very, very short distance. So in both instances, the bb should be about as stable as each other.

Same reason .43 ceramics are more accurate than .43 plastics.

Deformation is not really the major difference between the 2 different materials. I doubt that the plastic bb's deform much at all. If any (maybe really small but it would be that small that it would not effect).
The main difference is consistency. Ceramics are consistent. Plastic bb's can have heavy and light spots throughout them while the ceramic bb's have an even weight throughout. Also ceramics are also perfectly round while plastic bb's are not perfectly round.

 

I think there is merit to both ML/Rhop, but it's in an application that's pretty specific to the type of hop up nub that's used. Simply put, with the right nub, it's possible to apply pressure onto the rhop/ML bucking that forces the BB into the same spot of the patch in an extremely consistent manner. This really only works with BB's at or above 0.28g and only shows advantages in platforms with inconsistent loading force (IE first generation open bolt HPA systems) or platforms with excessive loading force (gen 1 wolverine reaper/AEG's that for some reason have a super heavy tappet plate spring). It's also sometimes helpful to have this sort of setup in a high ROF build. That said, these points are pretty much moot for any bolt gun since the loading force is light and the cycle speed is slow.

 

With a standard nub, the bb should rub past the lowest point of the mound each shot making them extremely consistent too. This is the same with every bb weight.

 

I always see very significant improvement in grouping size when I change a stock bucking to a maple leaf bucking (in AEGs) and slight increase in energy. But then again I never used a prommy purple as it's twice as expensive as a maple bucking.

 

I've been using Prometheus Purple rubbers on my AEGs for about 3 years, just recently moved to Maple Leaf.

The difference is noticeable.
Solely the fact that I can hop 0.3g+ bbs without shoving half the rubber down the barrel (and losing a fuckton of energy) makes it worth it. Switching from 0.3s to 0.4s in my ARP only involves 2/3 clicks of the hop dial.

My M4 is still running on Prometheus Purples, it's an Ares and their hop chambers have an arm with an integrated tensioner that I can't be arsed to drill out. I also only fire 0.25s out of that thing so having a "better" hop system is a waste of money and time. It does fire consistently with little energy deviation and the groupings are more than acceptable for being 0.25g BBs fired at 0.85J, range is nice at just shy of 55 metres.

This at 1J, where 1tonne said a R-Hop/ML will have the most impact.

 

Interestingly I've seen people claiming maple leaf AEG rubbers are terrible, ranging from ripping in a few shots or have terrible deviation.

In my personal experience (at least the super Macaron) they are decent.

 

They must have messed something up during installation.

I did rip a MR-Hop when installing it in my AK, but that's because I'm a troglodyte, messed up the reassembly and ended up hammering the inner barrel in place.

Took it all apart, replaced the rubber (thank god I bought 5 spare ones), reassembled the proper way, and now it's perfect. It even upped my output (0.1J not much but still nice to have)..

Maple Leaf did have issues with some batches of their rubbers though, specifically the GBB/VSR Autobots, don't know if other models had the same issues tho.

 

@1tonne bbs definetely get scratched from scraping on the inner barrel under the hopup. There's always a bunch of bb residue under the hopup even after just like 5 shots. I haven't actually tested other rubbers, but I'm assuming that causes inconsistent bb surfaces. This means less consistent surface compared to ceramics which have more consistent surface/weight distribution as well as hard enough surfaces to not get scratched under the hopup.

 

I'll agree with this. The only advantage I see with ML/Rhop and similar rubbers over a typical nub is the concave shaping of the hop mound. That shaping when used in conjunction with a proper nub and barrel window leads to very consistent results.

That's not to say you couldn't achieve the same consistency with an old school mound nub bucking, it'll just take a little more care when assembling and choosing parts.

As far as scratching plastic bbs when firing and the effects of that on consistency vs ceramic? I think MagicMarkers analysis has shown there's a significant enough difference between the two materials when it comes to consistency that would more than explain the accuracy and consistency differences between the two materials without us guessing and speculating on how much the barrel (maybe) scratching a plastic bb will effect it.

Personally I've never seen the need or desire to spend real steel ammo prices on ceramic bbs for a performance gain that I likely will never be able to reliably measure.

 

I'm basing my speculation on magic markers comparison of .43 ceramics vs regular .43 where he achieved noticeable better groupings.

 

That would be because of the consistency of the ceramics.

That's not to say you couldn't achieve the same consistency with an old school mound nub bucking, it'll just take a little more care when assembling and choosing parts.

With both stock bucking and Maple Leaf, I get similar results. Especially with BASR's.

I always see very significant improvement in grouping size when I change a stock bucking to a maple leaf bucking (in AEGs) and slight increase in energy.

This is an advantage of Maple Leaf or R-hop. It does become easier to create that increase in energy with an AEG the more hopup that is applied. This happens more with shorter barreled guns. This increase in FPS could be the reason it seems more accurate. So it is not the mound that makes it more accurate but the fact the that the mound can help create extra energy. Higher fps rifles are normally more accurate. But then if you make a rifle of the same fps (Measured with the hopup set), with a stock bucking, you will see that it is just as accurate. So the increase in energy can make it a little more accurate.
So in AEG's I agree that there is a good reason to use a Maple Leaf. It can increase energy with more hopup. The easier it is to get your desired energy, the less stress on the gearbox and therefore more RPS.

But this increase in BASR's is the same with both Maple Leaf/Rhop and stock buckings. So no advantage. With BASR's there is no difference. Both the Stock bucking and Maple Leaf will increase in energy the more hop you apply. So why on this forum, a sniper forum, do we recommend R-Hop and Maple Leaf for bolties?

 

Ceramics are also not soft and scratchable, like a regular already inconsistent bb. Maybs the regular bb gets ever more inconsistent when scraped in the barrel.

I acknowledge that ceramics are more consistent. I am saying a regular bb is even less consistent, especially from scraping, and clearly ammo consistency matters because of ceramics. Idk if this actually matters, but idk how you could refute the bb residue in there and claim that they are coming out just like they came in.

 

I was first convinced to use Maple Leaf thanks to Reliku. I watched his videos on YouTube. Search “Relizu” and check them out. He makes some good (or convincing) points about Maple Leaf buckings.

One video is called: Maple Leaf buckings and why you should use them.

Another is: Why R-hop isn’t as great as you think it is.

 

i like maple leaf because more "drop-in" than stupid r-hop patch, cost time like forver to make it work perfect.

 

They make "drop in" rhops too. Faceless sniper and elvish tac have given me great results!!

 

Ok, I admit it, I'm an r hop junkie! hahahaha...

BUT, and I say BUT, I have the time...I do not pay to have it done, and it's part of the whole system, like I say over and over and over. I don't mind doing R hops...it's a research thing. In my case they are dirt cheap! Less than 10 cents a hop. For buckings I use the G&G greens that everybody else selss off at a swap meet for 50 cents because they're junk. In fact, the latest incarnation of my boltie is 100% recycled parts (with the exception of the 10 cent patch). Total project cost? I don't know...maybe 5 bucks including the inner barrel?

There is so much airsoft 'junk' out there I made myself a promise to reuse as much of it as possible. Parts, guns, everything except BB's and CO2 are recycled. Sure, it takes a lot more time, but I have that...and yes you have to be VERY particular with the set up to get it to work right (sounding like a broken record, again....again....again...).

So, with winter that lasts forever, it's a great way to kill time, do some experimenting, and all on the cheap. I still get better than average results (maybe not epic, but better than average still keeps you in the game) and everytime I hone in a new process, it gets a little better.

I won't kid around, for a no mess/ no fuss scenario, Maple Leafs are great! So are a bunch of other stock buckings in a properly set up rifle...I agree with 1 tonne completely. But in my case that'd be way too easy, fast, and in a place where good parts are almost impossible to come by it takes less time to build it.

 

I like R-hop and Maple Leaf as they usually give me extra FPS due to usually better air seal as well as better groupings.
But to be honest I've never bought anything but G&G and Maple Leaf buckings, so I don't have experience with Prometheus, Krytac, Firefly, or the other ones as the price is quite discouraging.

 

But to be honest I've never bought anything but G&G and Maple Leaf buckings

So I take it that "G&G" means you had good results with an AEG?
So in an AEG, I have conceded that a long nub can be beneficial as it can increase the fps the more hopup you apply. With this extra fps, it will create more accuracy. But get a Maple Bucking firing at 1J and a stock bucking firing at 1J and they will be about as accurate as each other. Though the Maple still has the advantage as it gets the desired fps easier meaning less stress on the gearbox and that you would have more rps.

But what about with a bolty? Even with a stock bucking the fps increases with more hopup. Personally, in this instance, I don't think there is an advantage for a bolt action unless it is for ceramics.

 

Hey 1 tonne, I use a G&G green in my L96 boltie...which is r hopped. I also used one of those in my kid's Striker...which is heavily modified now. No adverse effects, and in fact, substantial improvement over stock...but that's doing the whole rifle, not just the hop.

 

I don’t want to highjack the thread…but this is related
What happens when an r-hop patch “wears out”. I mean…at some point friction takes it’s toll, that’s the nature of entropy so to speak.
Given that, a bucking, wins out for being replaceable? I’ve never heard or seen a how to as far as removing a r-hop or preparing a barrel for a replacement r-hop

 

I don't want to highjack the thread…but this is related
What happens when an r-hop patch "wears out". I mean…at some point friction takes it's toll, that's the nature of entropy so to speak.
Given that, a bucking, wins out for being replaceable? I've never heard or seen a how to as far as removing a r-hop or preparing a barrel for a replacement r-hop

It's just a matter of ripping out the old patch, cleaning the window and gluing a new one in. Not rocket science but still tedious, compared to a really straightforward rubber swap.

 

Also I don't know about you guys but for me standard rubbers never worked for weights above 0.25g.

 

By standard, you mean stock or any non-Rhop, off the shelf buckings?

Regardless I find how much hop is applied (and how they are applied) is more influential to the strength of hop. The S&T M40 total stock can hop 0.4 with zero issues (and has a goddamn good hop for that matter), while the A&K M24 will struggle even with 0.36 and a PDI bucking.

 

Speaking of gluing, I heard even that is overrated for r hop? Thoughts? I have 3 rhopped pdi barrels with pre made patches. One in a Thompson, a vsr and an SRS. None of them are glued in and work great!

 

I have heard that as well, but for the 2 R-hops I had I but a layer of Scotch tape over them to hold them in a bit more than just floating around.
It's like the R-hop itself, every silly little thing you tweak and buy and make will make a difference, but who knows if it makes a good difference lol

 

As for R hop patches wearing out, I've never seen it...even after a bazillion BB's! It must depend on the material, but food grade silicone is marvellous stuff...it hasn't even sort of made a dent...years later.

As for gluing the patch, it's twofold. First is that yes, it holds it all together while assembling. Secondly, with it glued in I can carve it super smooth to match the exact profile of the barrel (or whatever shape I want to give it). Now, just to reiterate, only glue the sides, not the ends!

Oh, and about the tape thing, I'm not so sure about that. It might work, but whatever floats your canoe...hehehehe.

 

I have never seen R-Hop wear out either.
Then again, it normally also takes a number of years for a standard bucking to wear too unless you have got something like a 50 degree or less.
A lot of our club G&G CM16's still have their original buckings from about 9 years ago.

 

Lets just say that a R-Hop on a bolt action is literally eternal.
On a 50 rps DSG it may last a year or so before wearing out to the point it becomes too inconsistent.

Just like a regular rubber..