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Reasonable range expectations and upping power over 500FPS

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asg m40a3 bbtac m62 mr hop 2021 range sp170
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T4nkcommander

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2017 Ford Raptor
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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
Hello everyone. I've got a ASG M40A3 clone that I'm trying to push to the limits. I've had a lot of trouble getting the power up to 2.3J, let alone 2.8 like I'm aiming for. Performance is solid - firing .4g-.45g bbs pretty bang-on up to the 250ft range, but getting out past that without relying on hop has been a challenge.

I've tried several different springs to up the FPS - as well as DIY adjuster rings - yet my effective range remains around 250ft. I just installed a SP170 (haven't gotten to chrono it yet), and my previous performance remains about the same. I can lob out to 285ish, but I'm trying to fly flat out to that, not lob. I have a Mr Hop 2021 in the gun (85 degree), and it'll send shots to the sky if desired.

My airseal is good (both cylinder and bucking), and I doubled the weight of the piston using solder/tape. I highly doubt my gun is shooting at 2.4J right now, even with a SP170! The only thing I can think of is that the springs all are a bit too long for my cylinder, and thus are losing substantial power when they are installed.

So, I have two questions for yall.

1) What is a reasonable range to expect with .45g bbs with power levels of 2J, 2.3J, and 2.8J? As in, how far will the bb fly straight, and how far will it go assuming a well-tuned hop (arc up then down)?

2) Any ideas why a SP170 isn't lifting .45s flat out past 260ft? Is there something wrong with my setup?

Thanks in advance.
 
#2 ·
1) 60-75m or a bit more if you have a perfect gun, and you can definitely do a 90m shot if you have good conditions and of course a perfect gun.
I've only just been achieving this recently, and it was a bit of a struggle to attain, pretty much just shimming, polishing, reinforcing, and all that good stuff.

2) when I had the ASG M40A3 back in 2018 or so I could barely get it to do .36g Valken black BBs (magnetic weird ones) and I felt there was a range loss, so I used whatever Walmart .25g and had better range, about 70m with a little holdover.
This summer I borrowed that gun for a bit and realized that power/range loss was due to the air seal being disgusting, the piston being super light, and the bucking being very slick even when cleaned with acetone, feeling more like a soft plastic than anything else.
Once I remedied all this and R-hopped the barrel I got a noticable power gain and range improvement when using heavy BBs, so I'd expect that's your issue.

Idk what bucking you're using, but you may want to look at improving it somehow.
Sadly the barrel isn't exactly VSR compatible and neither is the chamber, so R-hop us definitely your best bet.

Take a look at the GUIDE I did as I went into more depth I think
 
Discussion starter · #3 · (Edited)
SiliconeSword said:
1) 60-75m or a bit more if you have a perfect gun, and you can definitely do a 90m shot if you have good conditions and of course a perfect gun.
I've only just been achieving this recently, and it was a bit of a struggle to attain, pretty much just shimming, polishing, reinforcing, and all that good stuff.

2) when I had the ASG M40A3 back in 2018 or so I could barely get it to do .36g Valken black BBs (magnetic weird ones) and I felt there was a range loss, so I used whatever Walmart .25g and had better range, about 70m with a little holdover.
This summer I borrowed that gun for a bit and realized that power/range loss was due to the air seal being disgusting, the piston being super light, and the bucking being very slick even when cleaned with acetone, feeling more like a soft plastic than anything else.
Once I remedied all this and R-hopped the barrel I got a noticable power gain and range improvement when using heavy BBs, so I'd expect that's your issue.

Idk what bucking you're using, but you may want to look at improving it somehow.
Sadly the barrel isn't exactly VSR compatible and neither is the chamber, so R-hop us definitely your best bet.

Take a look at the GUIDE I did as I went into more depth I think
Click to expand...
Regarding #1, what energy in particular? I can get 285ft with a foot or two of drop, but the arc still starts around 260ft, which is irritating to me. I speculate I'm shooting at the 450-480fps range, which is bizarre with a SP170.

As far as bucking....whoops, I had put in here I was using a 2021 Mr Hop 85 degree, but edited it out. It'll send bbs to the sky at half hop, so I'm not too concerned about that. I wasn't super methodical regarding airseal there, so that might be a culprit. I do think the piston is way too light, but doubling the weight didn't seem to help me much. Cylinder airseal is alright - it will leak for over 10 seconds before it completely loses pressure, so I don't think I'm losing too much there.

I re-reviewed the guide (appreciate both posts, btw) - it looks like we did the same critical mods. I'm starting to wonder if my Laylax spring is defective, or I messed it up somehow. It is quite a bit shorter now than it came of the box.

What about cylinder/barrel ratio? I've got a 470mm barrel, but still a very loud retort with the upgraded springs. That would indicate too high a ratio, and I need to decrease it somehow yes?
 
#4 ·
They can all do about 60m flat and can all hit about the same maximum effective range, just a little more arc for the lower powers.
You can still get an enemy at 100m with a stock Krytac or whatever, you just have to magdump and arc to achieve that.
I personally use 2.8J and get about 70m flat, but you really just have to learn to arc like gun guys have been doing for millennium.

As for your power readings, if you have the stock barrel I would replace it with one of THESE BARRELS as the stock one I had was about 6.10 if I remember correctly, which is a huge waste of air.
Sadly the chamber and barrel are a hybrid APS2 with hints of VSR, so maybe the Maple Leaf bucking just isn't quite right for the gun.

One thing that I bet could help things out is boring out your nozzle, as it was very small and had very bad flow when I had mine, and I felt like I had a performance increase.
One last thing would be to lap your barrel, simply with a snug fitting wooden rod and either a $15 diamond compound assortment or some Brasso and a film or two, as this will help nearly every barrel, just in varying amounts.

The M40A3 from ASG, Double Eagle, and the other usual crooks are a weird platform that serves no real purpose and is just a waste of $80 before you get a VSR or other platform with better designs and better stock parts.
If you can make your own parts and don't mind having a sub par gun then I guess you could continue, but it's really not going to be worth your time.

Here's what 2.8?J with a .45 should look like for trajectory, and it's just the sad truth of it that you can't really get a flat long shot, and you'll have to arc or overhop.
Image
Image
 
Discussion starter · #5 ·
Thanks for the feedback - it sounds like my gun is functioning properly then. I was under the impression a 2.3J+ gun should be flying straight out to 90m. My arc starts at 260ft/80m and climbs 1-3 feett, then drops. I was happy with the flight trajectory (easy to compensate for), but was expecting it to be extended a bit with the higher power numbers.

I think a new cylinder head would also help, but as long as I shouldn't be expecting flat trajectory past 70-80m, it appears my gun is functioning well within expected parameters.
 
#6 ·
As the cylinder is aps2 spec I think the barrel length you have (470mm) is slightly too long potentially for .45

A 430-450mm barrel should give a better cylinder/barrel ratio overall. But if your shooting fine as is I wouldn't mess too much and use it til the trigger breaks (I say this as I've never seen an aftermarket trigger unit for the sport line)
 
Discussion starter · #8 ·
Well I figured out my problem. Even with the SP170 I was only shooting 2.2j with .20g bbs and 1.8J with anything heavier - up to and including .45g bbs. Seal everywhere is good with less than 5fps deviation between 5 shots.

Current piston weight is 43g, and barrel 470mm. I know the barrel is too long but is my piston too light? I'm still struggling as to why my SP170 is so anemic.
 
#9 ·
Your piston is probably a bit too light(going off of VSR-10 numbers) but not by more than 20g, so that shouldn't be whats causing this.

The hole in your cylinder head is probably way too small, as mine was, plus it likely has threads which are screwing up air flow.
I recommen that you use a round file and widen the hole evenly as much as you feel comfortable doing, or use a Dremel if you have a very steady hand.
Don't use a drill bit, brass is extremely grabby, especially if you are drilling into an existing hole and not taking off much material.
 
#10 ·
You can not make a BB go faster than the amount of joules available. By adding a more powerful spring or system, you are taking the equipment over its stress limits and then things break and you quickly end up with bone yard pieces.

Velocity is proportional to the BB mass. think of Joules as the fulcrum on a seesaw, its fixed, your variables are mass of the BB that affects the velocity. To go faster, you reduce the weight of the BB otherwise you will start to find when they switch over to being only legally allowed to use joules, that your FPS may be OK but your joules are over the limit and you'll be swapping out springs.

Pretty much can't wait, watch all the cry babies with their over powered systems that have been cheating the chronos for years... get caught out. I can tell you its no fun having your ear split open because some A-hole wants more power and hasn't bothered to learn the fundamentals of ballistics...

The sooner those guys are ousted from the game, the better, they take all the fun out the game.
 
Discussion starter · #11 · (Edited)
@SiliconeSword Good info, thanks! Additionally, is there a possibly the spring was too long? It is much shorter now from being squished in the cylinder...I'm wondering if it lost a bunch of power or doesn't have enough room to accelerate. If that is a possibility, are you aware of shorter (more powerful) springs I could use?
 
#12 ·
Quite possibly, but I don't think that you would want to cut it, unless you physically can't rack the bolt, as cutting it would probably lower your power.

I remember the M4A3 bucking from the ASG I used to have, it was super hard but sort of crackly, like a shitty slippery rubber.
The nozzle also only contacted the outer rim of the bucking, probably causing massive air loss, which I helped a bit, but never cared enough to fix completely.
You may have mentioned having a different bucking, but it may no be playing well, such as a VSR bucking in an SRS.

Also, what barrel do you have?
The stock one was super loose and very very rough, probably a lot of your issue if you have the stock aluminum one.
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
I have a Mr Hop bucking sealed with Teflon. It is airtight - I tested it again last night. The barrel is out of my old UTG, and not good. In fact, I think I bent it last night, if it wasn't bent already. My brother convinced me to tech on my gun the night before game day....

Anyway, a barrel and cylinder head are the next purchase items on my list. Even with a lot of stock, crap parts the gun shoots really good - I just don't have the range I want, because I can't get power out of it.

Do you think any VSR10 cylinder head will screw on? Worried about screw pitch, angle, etc. I'm currently looking at these two:

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I assume I should get a ML Crazy Jet 430mm as opposed to the 470mm, to help improve my volume ratio? Thanks for all the input. I'd really like to get this working...if I can just sort this power problem, it will really shine.
 
#14 ·
You are stuck with the original cylinder head sadly, as the cylinder slips inside of a VSR cylinder.
THIS cylinder head may work as the gun takes APS2 pistons, and the threads look like they could work, so maybe get this.

I would look at THIS barrel as well, should be great for this gun and when you break down and buy a VSR
 
Discussion starter · #16 · (Edited)
Plazmaburn said:
@T4nkcommander What spring did you use in it? It should not have shrunk all that much, if it has, then the spring is bad. Some brands are pretty bad about not having proper tempers on their springs.
Click to expand...
Laylax SP170

You are stuck with the original cylinder head sadly, as the cylinder slips inside of a VSR cylinder.
THIS cylinder head may work as the gun takes APS2 pistons, and the threads look like they could work, so maybe get this.

I would look at THIS barrel as well, should be great for this gun and when you break down and buy a VSR
Click to expand...
The gun is a mix of VSR10 and APS2 parts. The question is which platform does the cylinder and head take after? I'm picking up a $12 VSR10 head that looks to be the same....if the threads work, great - if not, I know it is APS2.
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
SiliconeSword said:
Likely the cylinder head and barrel bore, idk what else could be causing this.
Click to expand...
That's where I'm at. Holding pressure, beefy spring...doesn't make much sense to me. Gonna add more weight to the piston, get a better barrel, and work on the cylinder head. I'm bound and determined to figure out what the problem is.
 
#19 ·
Im pretty sure that cylinder head I linked will fit, so I'd go with that and that AA 430 or whatever other barrel you think would be good.
I recently bought an Angel Custom and really like it, but I wouldn't recommend as lapping is absolutely required since the surface is so rough.
Definitely go for an AA or Maple Leaf, whichever one is tighter.
 
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